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Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train.com Posted On:2009-11-17 14:10:49
I think the most profound differences between Pivotal Vs Lineal, and why I concentrated on Lineal to begin with,  are these...
 
(a)  Lack of inertia in Pivotal designs ( I have since designed a Pivotal with inertia ) . 
 
(b)  Limited upper body workout. Which I deemed very important for overall body strength and injury prevention. And if this was ever meant to be taken seriously by guys, was a must.  ( I have since designed a Pivotal handlebar system ) 
 
(c) Limited platform size combined with weight restrictions. Remember I wanted it to take over 300kg
 
I personally think the biggest thing holding back Pivotal companies is the " haven't we done well" mentality . Instead of saying " what haven't we done well "  and go about fixing it. And repeating the marketing line " amplitude is everything" ( something Power Plate use to preach ) which I have proven is far from the deciding factor in results. As long as they think they have already have the end product and all they concentrate on is production price, they will be left behind.
 
All I can say is, it is frustrating to see not a single Pivotal company leading the way. Someone should have surpassed Galileo instead of looking up to them.
 
 
         " If you want to be as good as your teacher, you are not aiming high enough "     
 
Di Heap Posted On:2009-11-17 10:57:28

John, you said

QUOTE : “I personally feel that when holding static positions, pivotal platforms feel much more muscularly engaging.  Obviously this is because the amplitude is much greater. “ END QUOTE

Amplitude is nothing!

I can tell you that this is very dependent on the brand and actual machine.  Come for a holiday and visit the studio I work at and I’ll put you on a high-force, lineal machine that moves less than 1mm yet the muscle contraction in your quads during a static, 60second basic squat will have you crying. 

While I respect your opinion I suggest you try a VibroGym, BodyShaker, or Vibra-Train, (or a HyperGravity although I have not tried the sports model so can’t validate it). 

The lineal platforms that are “great for fast paced active exercise” are the ones that are too low force for anything else. 

Even within the broad Pivotal and Lineal categorisation there are very differing machines.  I sometimes use a gentle, pivotal, vibration-therapy machine to relieve mild backache and I’ve used a bigger sports model pivotal exercise machine where active movement plus the see-saw vibration = a fitness session. 

“There is a machine for everyone, right?”  Well that depends on what they want to achieve and this needs to be made clear to the person providing the service or selling them the home machine.  I wouldn’t use “comfort” as the determining factor.  And head vibration – when using a high quality machine, it disappears on the second or third visit as that’s when the customer relaxes.  It can be just a tensing of the jaw or shoulders that causes the sensation.

 
JonHyams Posted On:2009-11-17 09:16:56

Lloyd,

I like the Pivotal vs Lineal debate you recently republished.  You are right, it is a sales gimmick with many companies. This happened with Elliptical machines as well back in the day.   What most people sitll dont understand is that they are an apples to orange comparison.  Its like saying a treadmill and an elliptical are both cardio machines so they must be the same.  No... each has thier own unique properties....ie an elliptical is a low impact cardio device while a treadmill will most likely yeild the best performance results but with a higher risk of injury.    Instead of bashing each others machines we should be encouraging people to use both technologies to understand their differences.  There is a machine out there for everyone right.  Im finding that people either try a pivotal machine first or a lineal machine first and assume that all WBV is like that first machine that they tried.  The reality is if they were able to try both side by side, they will at least like one of them. 

For example I let the customer decide what feels comfortable for them and I encourage the purchase of both types of machines especially when its for a gym or clinic.  If you asked me what I preffer to train on, I would say pivotal becasue I dont like the way some lineal units make my head vibrate. To each their own.... It really comes down to what the user likes.  

On the flip side for transverse vibration positions, I do prefer the lineal machines when I am really sore from weight lifting.   I believe many lineal platforms are great for stretching, massage and fast paced active exercise.  I personally feel that when holding static positions, pivotal platforms feel much more muscularly engaging.  Obviously this is because the amplitude is much greater.  I also think each machine has its applications for sport specific exercise.  For instance we are testing the effect of warm up on a pivotal platform on baseball bat swing velocity.  This makes sense because pivotal platforms force hip articulation and where do you derive swinging power from. YOUR HIPS. i also know that there are some lineal platforms that have tested increases in explosive power and fatloss.  Like I seach each technology has its applications.   Ill keep ya posted on that study ..its due back in about a month. 

   

 
PhilippaChurch Posted On:2009-11-17 06:30:41

Thanks for the article on tucking pelvis under.  Makes perfect sense when explained.  Just another example of how conventional trainin theories are just not transferable. 

 
John Posted On:2009-11-17 06:02:54

Nice short and informative article on tucking the pelvis, how uninformed some of these exercise people are.  The entire exercise industry is full of corrupt and idiotic people.  I could write a book about the NSCA and the many scams within this organization that have been covered up.  There appears to be very little logic by exercise people.  Many of these people must not be capable of using reason.  I have asked people simple questions about a variety of topics and received no answers or else the people become angry at me as if  I am doing something wrong by asking questions.  And this includes many ethical questions that have never been answered by the NSCA.  The NSCA covers up unethical behavior instead of addressing it.

John Weatherly

 

On the Take with Power Plate Part 2

Editor’s Note:  John T. Weatherly has helped with conditioning programs and research at the U.S. Olympic Training Center in Colorado Springs. John is also a frequent commenter and contributor on the Russells’ Blog. Today’s article is the second in John’s series on vibration plates. These plates vibrate like a truck on a highway, allegedly making you fitter. Weatherly exposes the unreliable studies that the National Strength and Conditioning Association (NSCA) and others have published on vibration platforms, and the corporate relationships that helped cover up the bad science.

In Part 1 I demonstrated that NSCA and others have published many unreliable research studies on vibration platforms. For example, many studies on Power Plate models did not even test the platforms under loaded conditions to see if they performed as the manufacturers claimed. The research was so bad the International Society of Musculoskeletal and Neuronal Interactions had to publish a paper in 2010 on how to conduct and report WBV studies.

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The NSCA’s website still lists Power Plate in its “Corporate Alliance” section: http://bit.ly/1DAoT8G

Power Plate is a corporate ally of the NSCA and also a partner with EXOS (formerly Athletes’ Performance).

The NSCA claims on their website,

As the worldwide authority on strength and conditioning, we support and disseminate research-based knowledge and its practical application to improve athletic performance and fitness.

Really? Why would the NSCA publish numerous unreliable and invalid vibration studies? Was it they just didn’t know any better and made honest mistakes? Or, did the NSCA cover up information on purpose and publish the studies anyway?

You are about to read a sordid account about some of my experiences with the exercise industry.

We're not sure what's going on here.

We’re not sure what’s going on here.

My Background With Vibration

From 2003-2005, I consulted with an exercise company on rotary inertia and vibration. In 2004, I actually met with an ex-Soviet scientist to discuss his work on vibration. This is how I became involved with vibration. During this same time period (2003-2005), I wrote and communicated with Mark Verstegen (President and Founder of Athletes’ Performance, which is now EXOS).

I remember one email in particular with Mark. He said he thought vibration was HUGE and that the CNS and fiber type influenced responses to different frequencies and amplitudes. I believe Mark and Athletes’ Performance (AP) were the first facility in the US to develop a corporate partner relationship with Power Plate in late 2002.

 

A few years later, after I had briefly represented another company in the vibration industry (I haven’t had a thing to do with vibration companies for at least seven years), I met an individual in New Zealand online named Lloyd Shaw that knew more about actual vibration equipment than anybody I had come in contact with. Keep in mind, I had communicated with an ex-Soviet scientist along with other scientists such as Dr. Patrick Jacobs who was with the Miami Project to Cure Paralysis at the time, and had communicated with somebody recognized as one of the top performance specialists in the world (Mark Verstegen). Lloyd knew more about the actual vibration equipment than any of these other people. Lloyd and I have corresponded ever since.

Lloyd Shaw educated me on the history of Power Plate:

1) In 1999 a group of Dutch and German engineers built a more ergonomic and nicer looking model of Dr. Bosco’s Nemes platform for the retail market.

2) Research and engineering tests were promising but work needed to be done to increase the plate size and power.

3) Power Plate split in 2003 with one partner going to China to get cheap knock-off platforms made.

4) In 2004, Lloyd Shaw, an ex New Zealand Navy Weapons Electrical Mechanic and Mortician, was hired as Power Plate’s Product Manager.

5) Lloyd Shaw failed Power Plate’s new Chinese-made model on all tests. The biggest issue with the Chinese units was they provided random (non-lineal) vibration and dropped all advertised specifications with various loads over 20 Kg on the plates.

6) Lloyd Shaw ordered a recall of the Chinese Power Plate units.

7) Power Plate’s higher ups ignored the recall and sold the machines to the public. Power Plate only advertised the unloaded specifications (not loaded) to people.

8) Power Plate tried to place an injunction on the engineering reports, which included issues with plastic replacing the older steel construction. Faulty electronics and overall design errors meant the machines could never perform to the same level as the original, well-tested, steel machine.

9) Power Plate hired a group of academics to divert attention away from these issues and use the engineering reports, awards and research from the older real machine to sell the new Chinese model.

For more information, check out these links:

http://www.vibration-training-advice.com/the-industry-the-theory-and-trainers-tips/articles-11—20-2/fake-specs-the-true-timeline-of-discovery

http://www.vibration-training-advice.com/consumer-guide-and-safety-program/articles-51—60/the-power-plate-scam-part-1

http://www.vibration-training-advice.com/consumer-guide-and-safety-program/articles-71—80/the-power-plate-scammers-part-2

http://www.vibration-training-advice.com/uploads/pdfs/Evidence-3.pdf

http://www.vibration-training-advice.com/uploads/pdfs/Evidence-2.pdf

Power Plate’s Fake Scientific & Medical Advisory Board

Former ACSM President Dr. Steven Blair: http://bit.ly/1ASk1L0

Former ACSM President Dr. Steven Blair: http://bit.ly/1ASk1L0

Power Plate listed individuals on their website that were on Power Plate’s Scientific & Medical Advisory Board. They listed Mark Verstegen, even though Mark’s company was a corporate partner with Power Plate. Power Plate also listed Dr. Steven Blair, a former President of the American College of Sports Medicine (ACSM). They listed Dr. David Nieman (a former VP of the ACSM) as heading the Power Plate Research Center at Appalachian State. Power Plate marketers were so dumb they listed Nieman as a PhD, even though he’s a doctor of public health (DPH). In fact, Power Plate corrected this after I mentioned it online.

Think about this. You have an individual on your board of experts and you can’t even list his doctoral degree correctly. But that’s not the worst of it. Another person Power Plate listed among these experts was Dr. Marco Cardinale.

The problem with Dr. Cardinale is he didn’t know Power Plate was listing him as one of their experts on the Power Plate Scientific & Medical Advisory Board on their website! Lloyd Shaw contacted Dr. Cardinale and Cardinale said he didn’t know about it. So, Power Plate issued an apology to Dr. Cardinale and removed his name from the list of experts on the Power Plate Scientific & Medical Advisory Board. Power Plate also dropped Dr. Steven Blair off the list of experts on the Power Plate Scientific & Medical Advisory Board, for some other reason.

However, the list still included two people that I had interacted with. One was Mark Verstegen. The other was Dr. David Nieman. It was quite interesting that Power Plate stated on its website that Dr. Nieman headed the Power Plate Research Center at Appalachian State. Years earlier, I had helped Dr. Nieman with data collection for a study or two on immune system responses to exercise.

Athletes’ Performance Launched Core Performance

Around this same time period, Athletes’ Performance (AP) was broadening its market from athletes to the general population with the Core Performance brand. They launched coreperformance.com and I went on the discussion forum. Several people started vibration and Power Plate threads that the moderators eventually shut down.

I commented but didn’t start any of the discussions. Mark Verstegen and AP decided to bring Scott Hopson on the forum to answer vibration questions. They billed Scott as Power Plate and AP’s “worldwide educator” on vibration. AP erased almost all of this but what happened is Scott was brought on to answer questions, I asked questions, Scott disappeared, and I was kicked off the forum! Here’s one exchange with Scott Hopson that AP wasn’t able to erase.

At this point any communication between Mark or AP staff and me ended. I found out just asking questions about Power Plate could get a person on Mark and AP’s banned list!

Another pleased Power Plate customer: http://bit.ly/1LSbJFV

Another pleased Power Plate customer: http://bit.ly/1LSbJFV

The Fake Power Plate Research Center at Appalachian State

I thought it was a conflict of interest for Mark Verstegen to be on Power Plate’s Scientific & Medical Advisory Board when they were corporate partners. However, for a university and a research scientist to do the same thing would be even worse in my view!

A scientist friend of mine had mentioned in a phone conversation he thought Dr. Jeff McBride was really the person in charge of the Power Plate Research Center at Appalachian State. This same individual mentioned he thought what happened is Dr. Nieman agreed to let Power Plate use his name and Appalachian State’s name on their website in order to get funding from Power Plate.

I decided to play dumb and call the Power Plate Research Center at Appalachian State. I talked to a university operator and was told there wasn’t a listing for the Power Plate Research Center. This seemed odd that a research center at a university didn’t have a phone number listed in the university directory. So, I called Dr. Jeff McBride and talked with him. Dr. McBride had written a short review on Vibration Training and Athletic Performance for the NSCA.

I asked Dr. McBride why Power Plate was saying on their website there was a Power Plate Research Center at Appalachian State? Dr. McBride said:

They gave us some money!

McBride said he had been involved with a Power Plate study. Dr. Nieman had conducted a Power Plate study. I believe one other Power Plate study had been done at Appalachian State at the time for a total of three Power Plate studies at the Power Plate Research Center headed by Dr. Nieman at Appalachian State. Dr. McBride said they didn’t have any studies currently going on and none planned for the future. He also said companies like Power Plate come to researchers like him wanting to prove their equipment works. Dr. McBride told me he thought it was a fad. My immediate thought was, how can there be a Power Plate Research Center at Appalachian State if there’s nothing going on, nothing planned for the future, not any phone number, and Dr. McBride thinks it’s a fad? The date of my phone conversation with Dr. Jeff McBride was July 20, 2009.

Over the next few months, I occasionally checked Power Plate’s website. Power Plate still said Dr. David Nieman headed the Power Plate Research Center at Appalachian State on their site. Of course, Power Plate still listed Mark Verstegen and Dr. Nieman on the Power Plate Scientific & Medical Advisory Board.

The Dodgy Drs. Nieman and Gaskill

I decided to contact Dr. Nieman directly about this. Dr. Nieman is highly thought of for his work on exercise and the immune system. He’s received many research grants and awards. In 2013, the American College of Sports Medicine awarded Dr. Nieman “the prestigious Citation Award for his extensive work in health and exercise sciences.”

Dr. Nieman receives an ACSM award: http://healthsciences.appstate.edu/news-events/519

Dr. Nieman receives an ACSM award: http://healthsciences.appstate.edu/news-events/519

One would think it would be easy to get a simple yes or no about the existence of a Power Plate Research Center headed by Dr. David Nieman from Dr. Nieman himself. You’d also think a person of Dr. Nieman’s stature and accomplishments would freely answer other questions about Power Plate. And heck, I even helped collect data for a study or two of his a long time ago. You’d think he’d answer simple questions in a straightforward manner from a person like me.

I called Dr. Nieman’s office, left messages, called the department secretary, called an office he had in another town, sent emails. I received no answer from Dr. Nieman. On the emails I included Mark Verstegen, Lloyd Shaw, Dr. Steve Fleck (current NSCA President), and Dr. William Kraemer (Editor-in-Chief of JSCR) to name a few of the recipients. I wanted to know if Mark and Dr. Nieman, since they were both on the Power Plate Scientific & Medical Advisory Board, had ever communicated about vibration? I knew Mark wouldn’t answer but was hoping somebody like Dr. Nieman would. I did not get any response.

These are people with whom I’ve interacted. I’ve mentioned Mark and Dr. Nieman but I used to stay in Dr. Fleck’s house some when I was his intern with the USOC many years ago. I actually read Dr. Kraemer’s doctoral dissertation (it was on endogenous opioids, Peptide F which Kraemer discovered, and exercise) at Fleck’s house. I’ve met Kraemer multiple times and corresponded with him about vibration. Dr. Fleck, when I was around him, was a very blunt, upfront type. I like people like that because you know where things stand and what’s going on. And now, Dr. Fleck has become a chameleon that changes colors.

Nobody will answer my questions about vibration research.

The whole Power Plate ordeal not only smelled like a rat, but it was a rat! With no response from Dr. Nieman, I contacted Dr. Paul Gaskill, the Department Chair. I spoke with Dr. Gaskill on the phone and also sent emails again including Drs. Fleck and Kraemer along with Lloyd Shaw among the recipients. At first, Dr. Gaskill said he wasn’t sure if there was a Power Plate Research Center. Can you believe how absurd this was? The Head of the Department doesn’t know if there’s a Power Plate Research Center in existence in his department.

Dr. Gaskill said he would get to the bottom of this by meeting with Drs. Nieman and McBride and get back to me. It took continuous prodding on my part from 1/19/2010 to 2/26/2010 to finally get a response from Dr. Gaskill. Dr. Gaskill finally said there was nothing currently going on at the Power Plate Research Center at Appalachian State headed by Dr. Nieman but Dr. Nieman would be taking a Power Plate to the University of North Carolina – Chapel Hill for a study in the fall.

Now, just think about this a moment folks. These are research scientists (Drs. Nieman and McBride) and the Department Head (Dr. Gaskill) at a university and they avoided answering simple questions about their publicly asserted research.

Drs. Fleck and Kraemer

William Kraemer of the NSCA's Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research.

William Kraemer of the NSCA’s Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research.

I thought people like Drs. Fleck and Kraemer would do something. They knew about the fake Power Plate Scientific and Medical Advisory Board. They knew how Mark Verstegen and Athletes’ Performance had banned me for simply asking questions about Power Plate on coreperformance.com. Of course, Dr. Fleck wasn’t NSCA President at that time but Dr. Kraemer was Editor-in-Chief of the NSCA’s Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research.

Kraemer and Fleck did nothing! Dr. Kraemer even said in this 2011 New York Times article he didn’t know much about prescribing vibration exercise. The article stated:

“We don’t know a lot about prescribing it,” Dr. Kraemer said. “There’s the rub.”

And yet it is being used many times without an understanding of how to do it best or what the long-term training effects will be.

“Research,” Dr. Kraemer said, “is trying to catch up.”

Heck, the NSCA still has Power Plate as a corporate ally in spite of all of this, and even though Power Plate is being liquidated and is under administration.

Power Plate is currently a part of Performance Health Systems, LLC.

Richard Beddie and REPS in New Zealand

Even with Lloyd Shaw in NZ exposing Power Plate scams and liquidating Power Plate, Richard Beddie’s REPS lists Power Plate seminars for continuing education credits.

Beddie approves of Power Plate after all the bad research and Power Plate scams, but he wants CrossFit L1 Trainers to pay REPS to stop getting critical press? Prior articles on this blog have pointed out that Beddie’s behavior is tantamount to extortion.

Richard Beddie of REPS New Zealand.

Richard Beddie of REPS New Zealand has a relationship with Power Plate.

Giant Web of Deceit

I have demonstrated in these two articles that exercise scientists conducted numerous studies on Power Plate models without testing the platforms under loaded conditions. Somehow peer reviewed journals such as the NSCA’s JSCR published these unreliable and invalid studies. Both the NSCA and EXOS (formerly Athletes’ Performance) are and have been corporate partners with Power Plate. Richard Beddie’s REPS is also connected with Power Plate for continuing education credits. Furthermore, this series has revealed a fake Power Plate Scientific and Medical Advisory Board and a fake Power Plate Research Center at Appalachian State headed by ACSM fellow and former VP of the ACSM, Dr. David Nieman. The supposed authorities of exercise science could have stood up and stopped this scam. They did nothing. This includes NSCA President Dr. Steve Fleck and NSCA’s JSCR Editor-in-Chief Dr. William Kraemer.

But, what should we expect from an industry that gives presentations showing researchers how to lie and cover-up?

All decent, honest people should be repulsed by this behavior and organizations like the NSCA that tolerate it. They cannot be trusted.

kraeple_help (1)

Image by Dr. Lon Kilgore.

About the Author: John T. Weatherly has undergraduate and graduate degrees in exercise science. He was a research assistant to the former Head of Sports Physiology for the US Olympic Committee (USOC) and has helped with conditioning programs for athletes in Olympic sports as well as professional baseball, college football, and an NBA player. In the 90’s, John published and reviewed articles for the NSCA and was an NSCA media contact on the sport of baseball. He helped initiate the first study on a rotary inertia exercise device at the University of Southern California (USC) and has consulted with the exercise industry on various topics, including vibration.

 

3 comments

  1. lloydrshaw

    Even though Vibration Training and CrossFit have nothing in common. I believe all truly passionate exercise trainers need to work together to purge / protect our industry from these parasitic fake expert academics.

    They create nothing of value for the population we are trying to help. But their lack of ethics and greed sure hurts science.

     
  2. ptrokgr

    PP probably paid athletes performance to let machines sit in their gyms so Pro athletes might purchase one for their own use. On the whole, Exos’ (AP) results speak for themselves in draft picks, multi-million dollar contracts, agent’s who pays 10’s of thousands of dollars per season for training their athletes, combine records year in and year out, Germany soccer, MLS teams etc.

     
  3. lloydrshaw

    ptrokgr Why would AP set athletes up like that. Unless the athlete was only about 40kg the machine was basically useless for performance ? And at 10k – 20k for a plastic machine made in China ? Sorry but being good at one thing does not give anyone license to screw people over.

     

 

 

 

 

 

 
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train.Com Posted On:2009-11-14 09:07:38

We will be gentle

 
MarkPellett Posted On:2009-11-14 08:55:26

Hi - I just wanted to introduce myself on the forum.  My name's Mark Pellett, I've been working with Philippa Church for the past year in Resonance Vibration Training studio n the UK.  I'm going to be running the studio on days when Philippa is helping out a local school who is down a teacher.  Although I've  had lots of hands on experience - my theory needs some work so I will probably be on here asking some blindingly obvious questions - hope you'll be patient with me. 

 
Di Heap Posted On:2009-11-11 22:16:53

From my understanding of Patent, they protect somewhat the investment in money and time that the inventor has put in and they also can be used to prevent a previous maker of similar item from adding any enhancement that the patent covers.

 But what new item has CHUK invented? They will have researched others work and their design is basically identical to others so how can they claim its difference enough to patent it?  Maybe the Patent will be local only?  Would it be enforceable in other countries Lloyd?

 And while I understand the business reasons for Patent this is a university.  How are people helped IF this “new invention” can only be made by their manufacturing dept or with their permission?

 No worries really.  I already work for a company that has better design and results for consumers.  I’ve used a machine that can be set with the specs they are quoting although that’s not the standard measures for the machines I work with.

 I am glad they have proven results and I hope we’ll soon get to read the full studies.  Did you get supplementary information?

 

 
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train.Com Posted On:2009-11-11 17:05:33
Is it just me or is NOTHING they have listed something new, except what they are calling it. 
 
It would appear that all you have to do nowdays is make up a new name for something to become an "inventor".  Kind of reminds me of Power Plates attempt to invent "Acceleration Training"
 
I suppose if you are not smart enough to actually develop something new, its the next best thing.
 
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train.Com Posted On:2009-11-11 16:42:43

 

I received an answer from the University , our correspondence so far  .......
 
 
CUHK Invents Vibration Platform to Improve Human Musculoskeletal System ???

Dear Lloyd,

Thank you very much for your email. I am Janet Chow who is the administrator of the Faculty of Medicine of The Chinese University of Hong Kong. I would like to highlight some of the findings we derived from our scientific research work as follows: 

1.         We are the first group to confirm its positive effects on fracture healing, improve muscle action and coordination, supported by publications.

2.         We confirmed the positive effects in the improvement of Bone mineral content in perimenopausal women.

3.         We are the first group proposed the use of the Interactive Weight bearing exercise (high frequency but very low magnitude vibration) with the magnetic levitation vibration platform we designed.

4.         The vibration platform designed is unique and CUHK has filed the patent. The Patent office of CUHK had searched and there is no similar design patented. 

I enclose the supplementary information for your reference. 

With regards, Janet Chow (Ms)

Assistant Secretary

Clinical Sciences Administration

Faculty of Medicine

The Chinese University of Hong Kong

Dear Janet,
I am sorry but applying for a patient in your country is not the same as claiming invention .
 
 

Note these 2 companies......  http://www.bodypulse.co.nz/   ( uses magnetic levitation ) 
 
                                           http://www.juvent.com/   ( check out the specs and research )
 
                                           http://www.standingmate.com/english//04_customer/notice_view.php?num=5  
 
 
I do not doubt the machine you have build works, and it is good you are getting positive research released.  That is good for the entire industry and the science we serve. But for this Dr to claim "invention" is unethical and disrespects the people who have done the real work ( years before he looked at this technology ).

Dear Lloyd,

The invention refers to the vibration platform using “low-magnitude and high-frequency whole-body vibration (LMHFV)” but we have no intention to claim this is the only invention. ( included was the specs for the machine ) 

You have the freedom to express your views. Thank you for sending me a copy of your article. However, if your article leads to defamation of our professor and university, we will consult our legal advisor and reserve our right to take legal actions if needed.

Thank you very much.

With warm regards , Janet

 

 To Janet,  I will research the Drs claim some more, but so far the specs of " Low Magnitude, 35Hz 1-2mm Amplitude " have been commonly used in other commercially available machines since 1999. And I would especially look at the Turbo-Sonic ( Korean unit ) as a classic example of a machine carrying those exact settings.

 
                Kind regards  Lloyd Shaw
      

 
PhilippaChurch Posted On:2009-11-11 08:56:22

Great article  on history.  Thanks Lloyd.

 
John Posted On:2009-11-11 05:40:52

Enjoyed the article about the history of the industry that people need to know.  Keep these types of articles coming.

 

John Weatherly

 
Ian Posted On:2009-11-05 13:58:11

Thanks guys. That all makes sense and matches up to my experiences so far. I know I will be asking more questions in the future if facing any sales pitch.

 
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train.Com Posted On:2009-11-04 19:19:35
News release.....
 
CUHK Invents Vibration Platform to Improve Human Musculoskeletal System
 
 
 
I have sent the Universities PR department a letter asking to validate the "invention" part of the claim. It will be interesting to see if I receive an answer.
 
Please note:  These are the systems I tested myself in 2004  
 
(1) Magnetic coil ( sonic )
(2) Opposing magnets.
(3) Electric motor 
 
And I am only one of the many that have been looking at advancing this technology for years.     
 
PhilippaChuch Posted On:2009-11-04 05:32:47

Hi Ian.  I would echo this.  I had a studio with Hypergravities , the biggest retail models available, and most people did see good results, but probably started to plateau after a few months.  Once we moved to VibraTrains our regular customers saw renewed increase in muscle growth and really noticed the difference in the machines effect.

  Customers that could hold a 2 minute supersquat on a Hypergravity really struggled with even a minute on the Vibra Trains at first.  We have also not reached any sense of a plateau as yet and cant see that happening. 

 
MikeHair Posted On:2009-11-03 19:16:08

Ian

 

I started with pivotal machines that gave limited results, people tended to plateau after 3 months. Then I went on to professional machines that gave mixed results. Some people done really well, where as some people saw no change?

 

Then we moved to the full commercial machines of Vibra-Train with no limitations, the results are great. I have clients that have used the professional model for two years and after a few sessions on the Vibra-Train are amazed at the change in their muscles.

I for one have not done weight training for over 14 months now and cannot believe the muscle composition change in only 4 weeks, my wife can’t keep her hands off me J.

 
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train.Com Posted On:2009-11-03 17:11:36
Ian....
 
First off I would like to say the following statement is not my opinion, but is the result of Body Composition tests that have been done on different machines over the course of 5 years. I will admit I already had an opinion on the subject, but I was prepared to be wrong because I believed everything can be improved. So I would have taken failure as a challenge to build a better machine. I will also add that my first idea was to buy most of our studios stock from existing companies and only have one or two "no-limits" machines on the floor. Things did not work out that way.
 
I will split the differences into 2 groups....
 
(1)  Body Composition changes.......
 
From day one I had all the top brands at my disposal. Not only the best in manufacturing but popularity ( which was not the same thing ). I had already noticed the lack of muscle gain and body fat % loss in tests prior to 2004,  as Power Plates Product Manager I had access to everything and to say I was unimpressed is an understatement. I knew these machines could be improved but no-one seemed interested in that. So to cut a long story short I designed and built the machines myself and tested them alongside the others in a busy studio.  Note: The standard safety program was followed by all customers.  
 
This was the pattern... 
    The lighter machines ( plastic units ) recorded no changes at all on the BCA. But then people were only doing the static poses. If they were forced to actually do exercises on them we may have seen something. Also the machine in tests showed it was running 12hz lower than the display showed. This may also have limited the outcome.
     The semi-heavy steel ( Pro ) machines gave mixed results, with some people recording ok results, and some none ( my own body did not change at all over 12 months ).
     The tests machine did as I hoped and evened out the results stats.  Some people still got results faster than others but everyone got results. Which I thought was important for "word of mouth" marketing I believed was the key to validating this mode of training and making it popular.  One thing for sure was we had a queue for the tests machine and not the others, which motivated me to build more. The rests is history.
 
 
(2) For those who could not normally use the other machines...... 
 
There was a portion of the population that could not use existing models because they were either too heavy to hold a squat or had a disability / injury that made it unsafe or impossible to use a standard platform. The newer designs took that into account, so that gave those people a chance to see results. So I was able to add them to the success stats.
 
I am sure Mike Hair will jump in and give you his take on the different machines, as he has been an independent for 3 years and only recently obtained one of my units.
 
Di Heap Posted On:2009-11-03 14:05:39

Ian, I am an Instructor working for Vibra-Train and before that a long-term customer so I can tell you of some Real-Life changes that people get using Vibra-Train brand machines.  These changes are for everyone regardless of age, starting fitness level, or body type as long as the person puts in the effort to train regularly and works with the instructor to ensure they maintain perfect position during the program.

The Vibra-Train difference is Muscle-Build!  Our customers get increased fitness, strength and conditioning, lose body fat (if that’s what their body needs as that self regulates somewhat), lose inches in measurements especially waist for women, better hormonal balance; again this is great for women, and more.  Some of these benefits can be gained from using other brands of vibration machines (in vastly varying degrees depending on the quality of machine and program) BUT

Muscle-Build is the Vibra-Train difference.  For women they build small, firm muscle that helps support their bones and, of course ,it looks great too.  Guys build up; firstly they notice increased size in quad muscles from perfectly held squat positions then upper body strength and muscle build.  They lose abdominal fat and cut up.

These results are visual but more importantly totally proven by B.C.A Machine (Body Composition Analyser, medical grade).  I encourage customers do this test when they first start vibration training and then after three months so they see proven results printed out.

I’ve even had endurance athletes complain about what they consider to be too much muscle build, eg, obvious change in quads.  We can work around this easily by training them on our regular force 2 machines and keeping them off the Sports level 5. 

Where else do you hear guys complain that they are getting more muscle and more power than they want?

... my apologies if this post seems rather like an advert. Im telling of what I see on a daily basis. Other companies are welcome to tell of their machines, program, and results ...

 
Ian Posted On:2009-11-02 18:31:51

To Lloyd, I have read most of your work but did not really understand it until I had felt a few machines. Even though I have not managed to try one of yours yet I can imagine how they feel.  My question what is the real life difference in results you get, not just theory wise, in the different machine types. 

            

 
PhilippaChurch Posted On:2009-10-31 10:08:57

Just checking that my reasoning as to why we dont do it holds up. 

 
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train.Com Posted On:2009-10-31 10:03:34
That's what happens when a companies ( HyperGravity in this case )  sole source of information comes from copying others. Randomly using a Power Plate program in this instance not understanding weights were only introduced when the machines became too weak and flimsy to give a good workout by themselves. My top trainer stated, after spending a week with them, that they were "irresponsible and dangerous".
 
And we have discussed before what uneducated people do when faced with a situation they are unfamilar with, they resort to what they understand. And everyone understands weight training.  
 
It would seem the U.K. studio in question has gone back on its word to keep things as safe as possible. I hope they do not stay in business long enough to really hurt someone and close like the ones that promoted that stuff here in N.Z.    
 
PhilippaChurch Posted On:2009-10-31 06:19:59

One of our local studios has been using weights and dumbbells with customers whilst on their machines.  These exercises include customers lying on their backs on the machines and lifting weights, doing squats and lunges holding weights and various others.  One of our customers who tried it had a headache for 4 days, after lying on his back on the machine and lifting weights with his arms.

 

 Inevitably though we are now getting the questions..." My friend lifts weights on the machines, will be able to?".   We are saying to our customers that the our machines exert such a force on the body that weights are not necessary, they will tend to be added to boost a less powerful machine's performance.  We would defy anyone to not be challenged to the point of total fatigue on our machines with no need for weights.  (We have Vibra-Trains BTW)  Also weights will throw the body out of perfect alignment which will add strain to knees, back and neck. Lying on one's back on the machine is most definitely a bad idea particularly when combined with weight lifting.

 

I just wondered whether people would agree or suggest times when using weights would be a good idea.  

 
John Posted On:2009-10-31 04:51:14

Thanks Lloyd.  Once again your reasoning and experience make sense to me.

John Weatherly

 
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train.Com Posted On:2009-10-30 13:01:31
I personally think the Fq plays only a small part in the results, and only really changes the comfort level for the user.  There are cut off points of course where anything too slow or too fast would become basically useless. But I think the overall construction and Required Force rating of the machine is far more important.
 
Think about this...
 
If a relatively light machine like a Vibro-Gym was moving at 40 hz and then taken up to 50 hz , the "inertia" of the platform would increase. I argued if you could add the inertia without the extra 10 Hz you would get a jump in performance and effectiveness.  But because the mass of the plate is set, it skews the tests results showing that particular Fq is better.  From my experience with different retail units this does make people get the wrong idea. 
 
 Eg...  I used to run most of our Vibro-Gyms at 50hz , not because I liked that Fq , but because 40hz ( the only other upper option ) was too "light" . But people thought I did it because 40Hz was too slow.  I since designed machines that run at 40 hz with High inertia readings, and the results are great.        
 
John Posted On:2009-10-30 04:44:46

A couple more studies in the Oct 23 JSCR on vibraiton.  DaSilva et al. looked at rest periods with vibration protocols while Ronestad found 50Hz a better fq for increasing 1RM strength.  Abstracts can be read at www.nlm.nih.gov,, click on PubMed, and type in "vibration training" as search terms.

 

John Weatherly

 
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train.Com Posted On:2009-10-24 18:39:36
A note to all users. If you wish to use characters in your conversations, copy and paste from another writing program.  The forum only supports the very basics because........ ( from my tech guy ) 
 
 " The characters have been excluded from the forum as they are commonly used in scripting. It is intended as a defense against hackers, due to the very open nature of the forum. A bad hack could compromise the whole website " 
 
 
And I think we all know this site is going to be attacked quite often the more popular it becomes, as it certainly will effect some unethical companies bottom line.  
 
John Posted On:2009-10-24 05:09:13

The JSCR study on the vibration bar is interesting like Lloyd mentioned about the fq.  The vibrating db GalileoVibraflex have uses lower fq I believe.

 

John Weatherly

 
Di Heap Posted On:2009-10-20 14:54:26

Link doesn’t work.  Try this

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19834351?dopt=Abstract

 
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train.Com Posted On:2009-10-19 21:38:17
 
Moras G, Rodríguez-Jiménez S, Tous-Fajardo J, Ranz D, Mujika I.
J Strength Cond Res. 2009 Oct 14. 
PMID: 19834351
 
Without visuals it is hard to tell exactly what kind of "bar" they mean here but I suspect it is a bench press bar with a vibratory motor attached. There are a number of systems available which are nothing like I use, so I will not comment on that side of it, but the EMG activity is interesting. 
 
 " the highest EMGrms was elicited at 45Hzi. "
 
Again we see these higher Fq eliciting a response when some companies still preach that 27Hz is the "only" Fq to use. Even though more and more research proves otherwise. 
 
DanPelletier Posted On:2009-10-17 06:29:28

Mike I here you, been tough keeping things going here as well but we are very passionate about what we do and take the training and supervision very seriously and it has paid off.  It came down to our business plan and Lloyd has mentioned this as well.  With a personal service business you had better take a serious look at time to profitability and know that it will take more than a few months to build loyalty and repeat business, we adjusted our plan from 2 to 3 years out although we may hit profitability a little sooner it still takes a decent period of time.

Brad, I would take Lloyd up on his offer.  FYI we use Vibrogym Pros just like Mike had before he got VibraTrain and yes I am very envious..but with the safety program, supervision and a personal committment even Vibrogym Pros have done a very good job.

 
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