Hi,

Ive been reading reviews for the Sunny Health&Fitness Y. 08 Crazy Fit Massager. People said it toned legs and help get rid of cellulite while used for 2 sessions of 10 minutes a day, for several months, only by standing on the platform.  There were no claims of weight loss. Do you think these reviews could be realistic ? I think that is a linear system, not sure of it.

Thank you very much

I have yet to "pick on" an innocent party.   

Also Susan

When you say “why do YOU litter your website?”  I’m guessing you are talking about Lloyd Shaw.

Using your analogy of bullies in a school playground Lloyd would be the exact person you’d want to have around. He’d be the one who kicked the bully in the backside as he threw them out the back gate.

Do you have an association with one of the companies that Lloyd has recently written about?
If so, please reply, you are welcome to state your viewpoint.

Susan, sorry I do not understand your question

This is an industry website with a number of companies, Drs , academics and individuals contributing over its long history. This forum has two tasks. To report on latest industry news and answer the odd serious question by consumers.

Unfortunately because so many companies are dishonest negative news is reported here and only here. The consumer will often be kept in the dark too long to help but we do report good news and reviews as well  see my previous post.  

Company websites that only promote their own products do exist. But they do not look like this. So maybe you did not read the whole site.    

Why do you litter your website with belittling other companies. It only makes you small minded and little yourself. Try talking about what your company does better than everyone else rather than demeaning others to make yourself look better. It's what bullies do on the school playground and the public takes a very dim view on it.

He has also been recently attacked for lying to the press in a desperate bid to make money off CrossFit instructors

http://www.vibeplus.com/2014/08/26/should-crossfit-community-clubs-and-trainers-join-reps-nz/

http://therussells.crossfit.com/2014/06/24/has-exercise-nzs-ceo-richard-beddie-been-caught-in-another-lie/

So we celebrate  report every time they have one less country to pray on.   

More news to come regarding an investigation into "innovation funding" given to HyperVibe by the Australian Govt. 

Some GOOD NEWS reporting

(newspapers are full of sad stories lately)

One of my clients is a 40 something lady who has muscular dystrophy. She has been coming in 2-3 times a week for several years now. Starting with a Therapy program she quickly progressed to the full training – IVTRB Safety Program, on our Vibra-Train lineal machines. I’m sure I’ve written previously about the good reports she’s had from her specialist physicians and how she now has better balance/proprioception and stands taller rather than stooping, and walks cleaner without tripping. It’s so good to see her continued progress.

Another client, a young lady, is wheelchair bound and unable to follow the standard program. Her condition is degenerating and we are working to improve circulation and strength.  Her wheelchair has a “stand-up” function so she is standing, using a low to the ground Pivotal vibration machine here 2-3 times a week which helps with circulation, bone density, small amount of muscle activation, and more. We are also using a therapy hold with vibrating handlebars of the Lineal Vibra-Train machines, helping her hands and fingers relax. This young lady has just completed a university degree course and I’m proud to know her.

To get here she usually has to come from the city university in her motorised wheelchair, a distance of 1-2km, in all weathers (I’ve had to dry her down several times this winter). On Monday she travelled alone (wheelchair bound) from her suburban home into the city by bus, then to the Vibra-Train studio, then repeat back home.

Yesterday her mother told me that the sessions make so much difference – when she comes regularly she does not get swollen, sore legs (with blue coloration) at night, and other fluid retention is resolved – we help her to pee! 

The CF Box right next door to me is not busy like it once was. I hope they manage to at least stabilize it before it goes back to being an indoor car park.

1. Putting my money where my mouth is.....  a $1000 bet with CrossFit 

http://therussells.crossfit.com/2014/05/31/why-erin-simmons-wants-you-to-know-she-doesnt-do-crossfit/comment-page-1/#comment-176

1. Lloyd Shaw

   I think it is Ok to love something and want to defend the idea of something. But at the same time be open to failings that might lead to a critical fail..Or leave you open to unnecessary attacks.

   Eg….. I was Power Plates Product Manager. But its lack of discipline in engineering ( quality fade ) and its anything goes policy it its studios. Made me walk away.

   I still LOVE Vibration Training to the core.

   Cant you Love CF but loath the undisciplined element and anything goes mentality of Cf Media .

   Eg……. I know some very overweight people that loved Zumba. But got badly injured doing it.

   So do you blame dancing or the music No. You blame the 4th rate trainers and the greedy marketers who are off selling something else right now.

   Reply
   • Russell Berger

     Lloyd, you are free to dislike whatever it is about CrossFit that upsets you.

     Reply
2. Lloyd Shaw

   I do not dislike CrossFit..

   I dislike lack of accountability.
   I dislike lack of foresight by leaders
   I dislike greed. .

   Because mark me, when thousands of boxes have closed in a few years time. And thousands of trainers are looking for work and wondering what the hell happened.

   Your “opinion” on the subject will be interesting to read about.

   Reply
   • Russell Berger

     Lloyd, be sure to screenshot this prophecy and email me when it happens. I’d hate it if you didn’t get credit.

     Reply
     • Maximus

       Lloyd, I would be glad to make a legally binding bet with you (I am glad to put the money in escrow if you will) for $1000 that in two years there will be at least 10,001 CrossFit Affiliates. I’ll even give you 2-1 if the number drops below 8000 as you suggest. I’m sure Dale will help us write up a contract and advise on how to do this.

       If you are not a big gambler we can make it for charity. I favor the Humane Society.

        
3. Lloyd Shaw

   I would be happy to do a bet. But on a much more directly measurable scale. That takes out the figures that can be artificially propped up by virgin territories ( to cover failings in pre-existing areas. )..

   Eg…. As Zumba collapsed in one country. It simply moved to another.I know someone who helped track this marketing trend as part of the team. It takes years to run that well dry.

   I propose this. …. We mark CrossFit affiliates numbers here in New Zealand. (As of this month … Mid July ) Affiliate Numbers are public and published so should be easy to agree upon. ( 105 as of today. But will get that clarified )

   In 2 years we come back. If the figures move up, by even one affiliate, you win the bet. $1000 USD

   If the figures move down, even one box, I win. ………… Nothing. As I do not want your money, or to even win. Give it to charity as you suggest.

   You game ?

   Reply
4. Lloyd Shaw

   And to clarify why my bet idea is more relevant….

   My only concern is for box operators .Grass roots industry level, where leases have to be paid and mouths to be feed. And the boxes need to be open to help fight Obesity.

   I have zero interest in betting with a global accounting / marketing company who think the above are just numbers on a balance sheet to be shuffled around.

Interesting artilce Lloyd.  The article does not mention the brand of vibration platform used or if the reliability of the platform was tested before doing the study.

John T. Weatherly

http://breakingmuscle.com/strength-conditioning/whole-body-vibration-training-works

I've taken the following from an article written by Lloyd Shaw (http://tinyurl.com/optimum-freq-lineal-2), it applies also to all marketers, sellers, and trainers/instructors.

“ A very sad fact in our industry ...

"Selling a machine and an idea to someone is easy; you only have to fool them once." 

But you try running a commercial studio, asking people to pay each visit, and you will soon find out the "practical truth" of Vibration Training very quickly. Which simply means people will vote with their wallets and not come back if something does not add up, feel right or give the results promised.  And I will tell you one thing for sure; no research paper is going to pay the rent. 

It would be wise to ask anybody out there giving advice to give you evidence of their own success, aka a successful Vibration Training location where they have had to make it in the real world, not just on paper,  hands on experience day after day with this technology and the general public. “

Marketers/Sellers might not have a specific studio location; although it’s the very best way to interact with customers and potential customers in my opinion, but if you plan to buy a home machine or even if you see a booth selling machines at the mall or home show, ask them … do they personally use the machines they are selling. Ask them to tell you about their program, any other training they are doing, and their results over whatever time period.  The moment they openly lie or exaggerate or pause and waffle on about nothing – walk away.  Do studio visits in the same manner; ask the trainers these same questions. Remember that small results can be valid and acceptable; blatant lies are never okay!

What amuses me is...

 The amount of bare faced liars who pretended to understand the importance of a strict solid commercial market. Telling me they respected my work, but going behind my back talking down what I build and do.
 

By operating out of fear of losing a sale, continuing with dodgy practices, and only looking after themselves.  All they did was essentially cut their own noses off and shorten their lifespan in the industry.
 

How the Canary in the mine now sings   ....

(1) Big solid , stable  machines. Good studios. Strict programs ( going strong. and about to get a lot bigger. In every respect )

(2) Lower quality machines in studios. Anything goes programs ( all broken / closed / as predicted )

(3)  Even lower quality devices sold online and at trade shows. Mostly sold with lies and scare mongering tactics to keep people away from any real experiences . 

Retail sales dropping quickly. Up against second hand units also sold with lies. It is now just a cess pit of dogs and fleas.

 

The Pivotal vibration machine industry is about to collapse - - just as Lloyd predicted.

A direct result of the lies and unsubstantiated promises made by sellers of all types of Pivotal  (from the $ cheap Crazyfit and not so cheap Vibromax, through to the quality, premium-speed machines)

The repeated re-sale of these machines has been so high it has killed the new pivotal machine market.   A quick look on New Zealand’s main auction/re-sale site, TradeMe, now shows only around 5 pivotal machines daily, almost all are re-sale (secondhand).  Import companies/marketers have given up trying to sell new pivotal machines.  When confronted with questions about the promises they were making when listing the machines they can’t reply.

We did a visit last weekend to many of the sports retailers who were selling machines. They’ve all stopped.  One commented they’d taken the remaining ones out of their stores as there’s no market for them now.

Add in the July, 2014 changes to the Fair Trading Act (New Zealand)  It will now be an offence for traders to make unsubstantiated representations without reasonable grounds. In other words, traders now need evidence to back up any claims made.. Individuals who repeatedly break the law will also face banning orders, which will prevent them from advertising for up to ten years.

Where does this leave the Vibration Training Industry??

The studio system where people receive supervised training is growing in strength and number of studios.  And where machines are available in smaller gyms and personal training studios they are doing well also.  These are almost always Lineal machines.  Machines (pivotal and lineal) are used by some therapists for treatments.  Very small therapy/circulation machines are being used by aged people, and others with limited mobility, for therapy and as long as proper instruction is given on the use of the machines (eg therapy – these are not workout models) they are well received. 

The real industry is very alive and very well!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2663889/Standing-three-hours-day-health-benefits-10-marathons-says-leading-doctor.html

Article fits in nicely with this old one about marketing myths and "traditional" exercise.

http://www.vibration-training-advice.com/consumer-guide-and-safety-program/articles-1---10/the-great-traditional-exercise-scam

Yes. Just standing around is exercise.

Translation.....   We don't care how many hundreds of people leave the stand with a completely unrealistic and unscientific impression of Vibration Training. ONLY when we get paid will we tell the whole truth.  

A long post – please read it through

1. This year I’ve had people again ask about losing weight (fat) by buying a “good” machine and Just Standing on it.  I’ve heard repeated the mantra – “10 minutes "standing" on this machine is equivalent to an hour at the gym”  ( emails from people asking advice plus people come into the studio to enquire, and my own clients ask questions).  When asked where they heard this the reply is – at the Home/Living Show,  at the Sports/Fitness Show,  and similar.  Comments from the people range from Very Interested through to Disbelief and Laughing.  I’m getting tired of going over this same ground that we thought we’d eliminated by our years of hard work educating the public. Last week I spent 30 minutes explaining about this to one of my newer clients who was very confused on the matter and on which type of machines do what.  In studio here she’s doing a full training program and wondered why a slightly different machine would be promoted to Just Stand Up to get the same (weight training equivalent) results.

2. In a .pdf marketing paper promoting vibration training at home I read, “ The G 'FORCE (ACCELERATION) THAT IS APPLIED TO THE MUSCLE IN THE HIGHER SPEEDS CREATES THE LOAD EFFECT OF INTENSE WEIGHT TRAINING. On the right machine even if you simply stand still at these speeds, your body will see change. How do you feel about having a stronger, leaner, and more active and flexible body? …imagine getting those results ten times faster, 10-15 minutes will give you the equivalent of an hour of weight training. “

THE INFO PAPER THEN GOES ON TO TEACH HOW TO STAND ON THE MACHINE CORRECTLY. It tells of speeds that are used for massage and mild exercise and then states that “above 17Hz Standing, is a workout for your body, 10  minutes = an hour. You wouldn’t weight train any one muscle group for more than an hour at a time so if 10 minutes = an hour, more is not better.”

-          People who buy these machines for home use are generally looking for fat loss and fitness so this paper, written to educate and then at the end advertising a brand of pivotal machine are clearly told that if they stand on the machine for 10 minutes upright at 17Hz or above they will achieve those results.

-          Marketers and demonstrators have copied from this paper and reproduced. The blind leading the blind (or lazy).

3. I watched a YouTube info-advert. The presenter clearly states that “just Standing on that machine for 10 minutes is equivalent to an hour’s gym weight training workout”.  No other positions are shown to the interviewer/enquirer.  

The interviewer/enquirer is told the credentials of the presenter, about the machine being specifically developed by the presenter and business partner and that their “point of difference” as well as the slightly bigger motor of their machine, is the support they offer.  The presenter talks of protocols and principles that must be adhered to get results, and that they offer these, both for physio and sport training.

The interviewer is then shown the machine and is shown standing upright on it. The next frames show the interviewer saying “wow” when the speed is increased.  

NOTE: the interviewer, a young, slim, healthy looking young lady is standing upright on the machine platform throughout the demonstration.

Transcript “What we’ve done is increased the speed to 15Hz and what’s happening to your body now, every muscle from here, from here down is contracting 15 times a second, that’s the beginning of exercise (NOTE person is just standing upright on the pivotal machine) , contractions mean work! We will increase the speed to add gravity, to add load bearing, which adds all the benefits load bearing exercise offers.  So things like bone density that are increased with weight training,

WE ARE OFFERING WEIGHT TRAINING HERE BY JUST STANDING, that’s the beauty, and in a matter of 10 minutes, we’re at 18Hz here, you are going to get the equivalent of the contractions and load you get in an hour of training, with the muscles below here (the presenter points from hips down legs toward knees and feet).”

The only slight difference in position shown at any time is at the end the interviewer leans forward onto the handlebars to support herself, then the presenter tells her to return to standing up, very slowly. It appears but is not stated that the speed has been increased – the interviewer/enquirer is, to all intents, just standing upright.

In the background of this presentation two other people can be seen – JUST STANDING – on machines while another salesperson talks to them. One is an older man, the other another young woman.

NO OTHER POSITIONS ARE SHOWN OR TALKED ABOUT to a young healthy enquirer.

While it is said that unique programs can be developed for the buyer there is nothing to suggest that there is anything else to offer except Standing.

-           LAZY, untrue MARKETING and highly detrimental to our industry. The sort we thought we had eliminated. We are extremely disappointed that this company has gone full circle with this and are presenting in this manner. No excuses or saying there are other programs or you can add movement change the facts – that’s NOT what the public is being told at shows and expo’s. Good machine but the brand is off my recommendation list.

(Full transcript available and link to the video for anyone who wants it)

Science and Honesty @ Work

Such a shame so much dishonestly out there.  

Next up.....  A whole paragraph on how to stand properly on these miracle benefits.  ( only standing positions mentioned , no squats.    

Hey Lloyd,

About your question of who is doing shows that may be saying this…

We do heaps of shows as you know, but if they are asking about us, no one leaves our stand having “just stood” at an expo.

We have a pretty full on demo and focus a lot more on joint and spinal health and have people leaving our stand and going to the organizers to say how much they enjoyed it.

One machine doing a tonne of shows is a show TV company and they sell a “Healthstation” vibration machine.  It is pivotal, has a pretty “fancy” touch screen.

We have had a couple of run ins with them about what they say.  Their most recent machine is a little better than their originals, but they vary which one they are showing at any given show.  The company also sells mops and things like speakers, pots and pans, shammys etc…

I think that says it all about where their head is at with the vibration machines they have.  It is just another product in their long list of products – and the guys on the stand are on commission only...

If that helps you imagine where their headspace is at when they are selling.

We see Gravityhq very differently. We are here to promote the health potential of whole body vibration and have the knowledge on how to do so.  It is never “just a sale” with us and we would never jeopardize our reputation by passing on false information for a quick sale!

Cheers

Dhyana

gravityhq.co.nz 

Because that is what we still hear coming out of these expo shows. We are left to inform them they have been lied to by scammers.

Do you know who the culprit is ?
  

Hi Lloyd,

There has been a lot of damage done by these companies touting their low end machines being able to create weight bearing muscle contractions at all let alone creating a full body workout in a “just standing” position.

Anybody selling a machine to people who want a total body (weight bearing) workout MUST include not only high enough speeds etc. on their machines(not just a number on the screen), but ALSO functional movement (static or dynamic).

The bodies seen in “those” videos cannot possibly have been created by “just standing”- their arm muscle alone should show that to even the most undiscerning customer.  No Arm, shoulder, chest or upper back muscle is activated in the standing position, so NO tone in those areas will happen  AT ALL WITHOUT PLACING YOUR ARMS OR HANDS ON THE PLATE! (LINEAR OR PIVOTAL)

AND, even with my terrific Gravity Revolution, I KNOW, full well the value of standing alone is limited, muscle will tone posturally, but fat burn is limited if you will not add the correct movement.

Just standing is a PART of a process, (important yes) but is not the whole picture.

Please understand this anyone looking at vibration.

Cheers

Dhyana

www.gravityhq.co.nz  

So you completely agree that thoseTV adverts or a salesperson telling anyone "just standing" on the machine for 10 mins, gives the equivalent of a 1 hour weight training or load bearing workout ..... is highly misleading and damages the industry.