Interesting article dealing with cheating, ethics, etc. and the Olympics by former USOC Heads of Sports Physiology and Biomechanics Drs. Mike Stone and Bill Sands at www.sportscienceed.com.  Kind of reminds me of the vibration area. It is also interesting that Sands will be joining Stone at ETSU.  In spite of many calling themselves "sports scientists" in the U.S., these "sports scientists" are few and far between.  ETSU is the ONLY university in the U.S. that I am aware of where scientists and students actually interact and work with athletes and coaches in the athletic department.  Yet, there are all these people at universities that like to call themselves "sports scientists" but do not do anything with athletes at their own universities.

John T. Weatherly

Murray,

Your comments on July 4 about researchers such as Lamont and Ronnestad publishing invalid data are right on and something Lloyd and I have discussed.  These researchers were so smart or lazy that they thought they could investigate different frequencies or amplitudes etc. but they FORGOT to test the platforms for reliability before doing the studies.  This really is inexcusable from "research scientists."  I have mentioned this many times to Dr. William Kraemer and colleagues.  Dr. Kraemer is editor in chief of JSCR.  He always used to answer my emails or return calls but I have not heard a peep out of Kraemer et al. on this issue.  In fact, several years ago I sent Dr. Kraemer an email and he answered right away saying one of his students had validated a certain vibration modality for warmup,  In parenthesis Dr. Kraemer said "I think."  So, Dr. Kraemer was not sure himself at that time which was several years ago.  Yet, this stuff gets published in "peer-reviewed" journals.  And now, none of the scientists will be accountable and say we screwed up by publishing these invalid studies.  This is just bizarre.

John T. Weatherly

Lloyd,

I am following your pivotal safe strength program. 

Thank you for the advice and info. It really helped a lot. 

Lloyd,

It will be a long time before I forget how I felt on the large so called Commercial Crazyfit Pivotal we got in for someone who specifically wanted it.

Once time was enough for me. I felt sea sick and pulled in multiple directions very random. 

Lloyd, admittedly I initially jumped on the Galileo band wagon too.

You were one of the first to introduce me to the research flaws, and your approach has definitely inspired me to do better.

Willie N

Thanks, that’s interesting.  I’ll do some more trials at 27Hz on myself and also my husband. He weighs about 10Kg more now so very low weight wont be an issue.

I agree that most home platforms can’t take higher user weight, both Lineal and Pivotal. There’s a need for a home unit designed for this.  Trouble is the selling price would reflect the materials and design needed.  

We need to expose the brands (or specific models) who lie about their performance.  I also wish this was illegal.

It’s an area I’m passionate about – I have some clients who are 200Kg and others at 160Kg. I have machines here that take 300Kg loaded (tested) with no degradation in performance so no problems.

 Compliance can be an issue in a studio setting.  People, who need to use the machines most, often have family commitments or excuses for not getting here regularly. Lloyd has placed a machine in a community setting where is being used (under the guidance of a nurse) with life-saving results.

Di, i believe everyones feet slip the first few times they go on a decent pivotal unit at 25,27hz.

It takes a few sessions for your body to get used too.I have a Galileo 2000 and i love it because its so versatile but my feet also moved the first time i used it at 27hz but not after that.

I also have a Bodyshaker junior but i outgrew that unfortunately due to my Hypothyroidism but definetly think lineal is also very good.Only problem i see with the current lineals on the market that are available to the public is that they cant carry anything like 200kg and keep there advertised specs.I think they should only be allowed to advertise their actual performance when fully loaded not their theoretical specs.

Lloyd, what kind of training regime would you recomend for hypothyroid individuals with very low testosterone and HGH levels.

Murray, any way of upping the user weight limit to 200kg on your existing machine while still holding true specs.

Di, as I mentioned to Lloyd when I was over there. Ill bring my new model over there in the near future, and you can see for yourself the ability to remain in form at higher frequencies provided the displacement is lowered.

Lloyd, the upper body drawback in pivotal design was the starting point for our new machine.

On the subject of optimal frequency, Id like to put this out there....

I dont think there is a frequency best suited for pivotal, and another frequency best suited for lineal. I think the science behind Galileos 25 to 27Hz philosophy is flawed. I do think there is merit in frequency upwards of around 20Hz being best for muscle activation, as there is enough evidence on latency response times of the stretch reflex to indicate that at 20Hz and upwards means there is no chance for a relaxation phase of the muscle. Therefore doing strength work below this is not as effective, and is why upper body exercise on a standard pivotal is not as effective as lineal.

Anecdotaly, I think you are spot on Lloyd to pick a frequency somewhere around 43Hz for the upper frequency limit, even Power Plate have removed 50Hz settings from their machines, citing that these frequencies are not useful for muscle activation. I have some theories and some loose evidence, and you probably have yours, but as soon as you hit that 50Hz mark, there is a noticable loss of recruitment.

As much as I believe that Jasper Sidhu knows his stuff, there are some issues with his article on this site regarding optimal lineal frequencies. In his references pointing to 50Hz being optimal, when we take a closer a look at the research being referenced the holes start to appear....

Ronnestad BR found improvements at 50Hz, but not 20 and 35Hz. Sounds interesting.... Ronnestad started his work in 2004 via NEMES, but by his next paper was published in 2009 he had switched to the Pneumex PneuVibe Pro. From that point up until as recent as 2012, Ronnestad published papers either using 50Hz or demonstrating that 50Hz was optimal. Unfortunately for Ronnestad, he doesnt appear to have validated his machine, and with a simple google search he might have found that another researcher found that the PneuVibe had been demonstrated as inaccurate.

  http://www.asbweb.org/conferences/2009/809.pdf

Years of work down the drain, which could have been avoided by a simple google search.

Unfortunately, Lamont HS used a Power Plate Next Generation and didnt validate it. As Lloyd and others have demonstrated, relying on Power Plate specs is about as safe as taxi ride through Baghdad.

Turner AP found 40Hz better than 30Hz and 35Hz.... Oops he used an untested Next Generation too, as did Adams J.

Cool Murray, that explains the fq then. Still doesn't explain why he slipped once the fq was upped. His low body weight maybe. 

Ive used another brand that's tested out accurately. I can't hold the squat without slipping when the speed is above 22Hz and low amplitude.  The machine definitely shakes my legs about, very different to lineal and very good at getting the circulation going after sitting at desk for an hour.  I used to try 27Hz but losing form just isn't okay.  I'd be keen to try 40Hz, hope I'll get the opportunity soon. Would be interesting to compare the feeling in leg muscles compared with a lineal machine, to compare the depth of muscle contraction or if Id still call it shaky rather than deep. Also I'd want to feel how controlled the vibration is, I've tried one brand , a big made in China machine, that claimed high fq but wasnt, and it made me seasick. 

Thanks for clarifying Lloyd, I agree with you to some extent, particularly on the higher frequncies and lower amplitudes, though I think optimal settings are highly individualised.

Di, I believe yourself and your husband tried a HyperVibe in April 2009, as per your article here

http://www.vibeplus.com/2009/05/13/hypervibe-premium-speed-pivotal-vibration-machines/

The machine you used there was a Performance model, and having installed Debbies machines myself, I can assure you at 25Hz it was running at 25Hz. The Rejuvenate model was not released until 2010 and only had a max display setting of 14Hz.

Murray

My (athlete) husband had a session on the Rejuvenate, one of the first released ones. He was then very slim and low weight, kind of all arms and legs. With feet, hip-bone width apart, 110 degree squat He slipped badly - maybe that just means not everyone is suited to a pivotal machine of that type.

The setting on the display (according to my notes) was 25Hz but now I understand that early machine was shown to be doing 14Hz maximum so If he couldn't hold a perfect pose at that lower speed - with an Hypervibe instructor guiding him -  there's little chance he will be okay at say,a true 27Hz which you say can be used.

Just sayin...

If you agree that there are exceptions e.g. lower amplitude, then youd also agree that simply moving your feet closer together has the same effect.

Id be very comfortable putting a sedentary 80 year old on a typical pivotal at 25Hz with a small squat, narrow stance, and form would be no issue.

Di, Im confused by you comment on 2 levels...

Are you saying that our HyperVibe unit was only operating at 14Hz via a 25Hz setting

If the machine your husband was using was only running at 14Hz and his feet were slipping, how would he manage 22Hz

My husband is a medal winning runner. He really disliked his experience on a pivotal, HyperVibe, three years ago.  Set at higher speed – supposedly 25Hz – his feet slipped when he was in a squat position (and we now know that 25Hz was more like 14Hz).

I have to disagree with you on the 22Hz guideline Lloyd, as it is all relevant to amplitude. Use a pivotal at 40Hz with just a couple of mm displacement, and it feels quite comparable to a lineal of the same settings, no problem holding any pose. Increase the displacement to 10mm at 40Hz and your feet will skid off the platform.

In 2009 Amazing Super Health did just that, and changed their pivotal from maxing at 15Hz with about 10mm displacement, to a pivotal maxing at 40Hz with about 3mm displacement. You can hold form no problem throughout the entire frequency range.

I havent encountered a pivotal machine where form cant be achieved at any frequency via amplitude adjustment.

Likewise, high frequency, upper body poses are quite comfortable on a pivotal at low amplitude. This is the weakness in pivotal design though, your typical pivotal unit has large displacements out at the edge of the platform where most upper body poses are held.