Kevin

Thank you for the links – very interesting.

I can see why you experienced back discomfort from the lineal machine; your squat is not deep enough.  On a pivotal machine this isn’t as specific until you get to higher fq.  As I said before, some studios have machines with side, vibrating handlebars designed for use by people who need that support and giving an upper body workout while in squat position (none in U.K. at present).  Philippa certainly gave you a very good start; your initial results are exciting.  It’s disappointing you can’t find sponsorship, have you approached Galileo?  In New Zealand Vibra-Train provides free therapy and training sessions, in studio, for some people who have life threatening conditions (M.D. and morbid obesity are two that come to mind). Lloyd Shaw has always done this – but only in conjunction with the client’s doctors, to show their progress over a period of time.

Dean

Thank you again for telling us of your experiences.  The PowerPlate demonstrator has now learnt why we don’t use dynamic positions on high energy, lineal platforms.  Two minutes of a basic squat (110 degrees) is much safer, feels very intense, and gives the results wanted by athletes.

Few days ago I presented a lecture on a meeting organized by Croatian Olympic comeete for MD's and PT's involved in sports medicine, and sponsored by company that represents Powerplate in Croatia. The lecture was about benefits of vibration therapy and training, with focus on pro athletes. Also, I brought one of our Bodyshakers with me, so doctors and colleagues can experience what strong lineal vibration feels like, and why I recommend static positions, and safety program.
Now, there are two stories, from that meeting, that I feel are worth sheering.
First, evidence based approach.
In their promo lecture, as sponsors, Powerplate cited one study from 2007. done in Israel on 20 athletes which undergo reconstruction of  LCA (knee ligament). They were divided in two groups, from which one undergo classic rehabilitation process, and the other exercises on Powerplate for a month. Stability of the knee was assessed before, and after a month on both groups, and results were in favor of vibration training, regarding greater stability gained in same amount of time in comparison to standard RHB process. So evidence is here right? Well...
Since colleagues from Powerplate were so nice to distribute this study in whole (not just abstract) one little fact catch my eye. In detailed description of procedures used both in vibration and control group it become evident that single leg exercises were done on vibration plate since day 4 of study, but almost no single leg exercises were done in control group. Every PT would see a problem there. So is there a benefit from VT in postoperative knee treatment in correlation to regular approach? I think it is. But how much is remain to be seen in better designed studies. Not to mention that Fq and amplitude are only thing measured in vibration in this particular study. 
Second, one of  Powerplate demonstrators wanted to try Bodyshaker. But not static positions, instead she was persistent to try jumping on the plate (thus copy what she is doing on much weaker vibration). She was surprised with force of vibration. I tried to explain force of vibration in KN, but she said that numbers means nothing to her. Even my attempt to show that, if we want, we can achieve lower intensity of vibration with higher amplitude, was totally strange to her. This is a pity, since she showed great passion for promotion of vibration training and therapy. Well, if that passion remains, knowledge is not so hard to gain, with some time and effort.

In past, especially when I started my adventure with vibration training and therapy I though that Lloyd is wrong, or at least exaggerate problems regarding poor study design, and low level of knowledge of people who presents themselves as experts. I'm not so sure about that any more.

 

Lloyd

I am still using the basics shown by Phillippa, and believe that is the way to continue. I have modified some of the positions to suit my needs and the pivotal machine. The lat position is very aggressive on a pivotal so I omitted it. Push ups are fine and I introduced one where you simply sit in the middle lean back and engage the abs. The squats are just semi semi-squats and you can adjust your weight to focus on different muscle groups. Straps are not on the Galileo Sport so I am  in the dark if this would help with the upper body.

I believe that the benefits from WBV for neuromuscular disease is totally overlooked by the medical profession, and most of these diseases do not have any treatment available, WBV will not cure but can make a substantial difference to the quality of life. Ironically one the driving factors in the development of the Galileo was muscle tone improvement on brittle bone disease patients. Over the years the focus has changed to general fitness and understandable so due to potential sales. There is also very few if any that are knowledgeable in vibration training for neuromuscular diseases, that why I log my sessions and post reaction, so that my body acts like a barometer to the training I am doing. Until there is monetary incentives I can’t see this scenario changing much. However, my results speak for themselves, my pelvis has become stable (first time in years) and my general fitness is not decreasing, if anything increasing. This achieved using a machine once or twice a week. I think the benefits would even more encouraging if I used a machine at least 3 times week, and this is my aim, hence the last post.  

There has been a trial done with one Pompe patient using a Galileo in Canada see:-

http://downloads.hindawi.com/journals/crm/2009/741087.pdf

I have also done a couple of articles on my WBVexperiences see:-

http://www.pompe.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=44&Itemid=66

All the best

Kevin A

Hello Lloyd,    I am looking to start vibration training for osteoporosis but before I do my doctor has

asked me to find out the amps and speed of the vibratrain machine, please could you supply me

with  that information

Vladimir,

I cannot read the information about the plate.  Lloyd would be better to respond than I about this.  I can tell you Dr. Alex Mikheev who was based in Minsk, Belarus closer to you has done a large amount of work on vibration since the 80s.  I met with Dr. Mikheev in Los Angeles in 2004.  Alex is a nice guy too and could be a potential contact for you.

John Weatherly

Dear Experts

During last days I have studied huge info about vibration. Your web site seems to be very professional.

We have partner in South Korea that make very intereting machine. The round plate vibrates not linear, but not only 3D. The plate is like rounding with stable amplitude 10mm

http://fitdivision.ru/catalog/uniq/176/589/

Did you see something like this before

Whats your opinion regarding this plate. Can this be interesting and make positive effect

My best regards

I would like to try out a Vibragym and I live in western Canada.

Does anyone on this forum know where I might find a machine to try.

I spoke with the Canadian distributor Joyce Ann in Ontario, and she doesnt have any clients in western Canada...She said that the previous distributor may have placed machines out our way and she is checking.

I have done a few searches but have netted 0 results.

Any help would be appreciated.

Victoria in Canada

Hi Jim

Congratulations on your future TrueVibe purchase.

My story is similar to yours. I live in Canada and my only experience has been with a Powerplate. It was only when I decided to purchase one myself, that I waded neck-deep in the info-marketing quagmire of Vibration technology. 

Please would you consider speaking with me off-line.

My email address is vspritchardyahoo.com.

Most Sincerely,

Victoria in Canada

Kevin

The VIB PRO machine reminds me of the Oto Flabelos which is a good machine but out of your price range.  The quality of materials and construction that you require does cost more to manufacture and some cheaper copies are not the same (though I don’t know the model you’ve asked about).  I’m sure Lloyd or Mike will advise you.

You ask for fq of up to 27Hz – On pivotal platforms anything above 22Hz can make it very difficult to hold position – feet slip on the platform. Also the feel becomes similar to lineal/upright vibration. It’s outside of what you’d need if you have limited mobility – outside of what anyone needs in my opinion as a lineal machine becomes the choice in this situation. 

When you used the lineal platforms in Philippa’s studio you would have used one with handlebars at the back only. In other studios we have machines specifically designed for people with limited mobility and/or obesity or hip, knee injuries. These machines have side vibrating handlebars which allow the user to be fully supported whilst in a squat position, getting an upper body workout at the same time. I have customers using this machine very safely and effectively – people with M.D., M.S, morbid obesity, Scheuermann’s  kyphosis (a spine curvature), and other spinal conditions.  Lineal platforms as well as quality Pivotals are equally useful – people find they prefer one type over the other both for therapy and training use.

In many ways quality and price are linked – maybe you and others with similar condition could buy a Galileo that all could use. Or to get some local help contact Kevin at TrueVibrations.co.uk - lineal machine designer with a long time in this industry. He will know what’s available.

A quick introduction, I suffer with Pompe but I am still mobile> I got interested in vibration training several years ago after self diagnosis and did a stint at Phillippa’s Studio in Ampthill. However it come to light that when I used an uniform machine, it  effected several vertebrae in my lower back over a period of time, This is probably down to the core muscles being weakened by the disease. I then turned by thoughts to pivotal machines and have been using a Galileo Sport at a Sport Centre for the last year. My time on the machine has been a little restricted but have not had a reoccurrence of the back proble . I have had several other patients ask me if there is a cheaper alternative to the Galileo that would suit our needs.

There are several conditions I need from a machine:-

Around £1500 maybe £2000 at a push price limit.

Good construction that will give a constant solid frequency under load conditions and pivotal.

The machine does not have to survive studio conditions but I would be looking at 10 to 15 years of life with  lets say, once a day usage.

The machine needs to go from 5-7Hz to 27Hz and lets say in minimum of 10mm amplitude.

The machine must be capable of going up in 1 Hz intervals and 15 - 30sec time intervals. This important since most Pompe patients need to gradually increase the intensity as they go.

I have tried an Hypervibe machine and was quite impressed with the workout, however the software was biased towards using 4 different training modes. There was a manual setting but needed re-setting for each exercise. Overall it was almost there although right at the limit of affordability.

Another I have not tried yet but sounds Ok is the BH Fitness VIB PRO, it has a heart monitor (beats me why) and the speed is not displayed in Hz, and it only has a 300w motor.

Can anyone be of any help in a machine that I may have overlooked that is available in the UK and satisfies all of the above. Your help would be most appreciated.

Kevin A

oh well....

Gabriel, all I know from your pdfs is there was a Wave used in two studies which had promising outcomes. I don't know for sure which model but from one date I saw (2006) I kind of think I can infer that the older, rectangular model is the one used, which tells me exactly nothing, much.

What I am going to ask is this: Does anyone have any clue as to how that Wave (rectangular) stacks up compared to their new range of steel machines (Contour Plus, Air Reflex, Pro Elite) in terms of force output? Does anyone have any clue as to how much more powerful (if any) the "commercial" models Air Reflex and Pro Elite are than the "home" model (Contour Plus)? I ask because I want to know if I would notice a significantly better effect with the commercial model, and since they are not shipping my machine for at least another month, I might be interested in switching up if the prices I was given earlier would still pertain. That there are no hard specs to look at beyond what's on the website is causing me no end of frustration. In fact, the "G" ratings of the commercial models are not on there; I had to question them directly to get even those. KN ratings are not given.

Unaware of any censoring outside of nonsense attemtping to be posted by salesman. I do not have any control over content posted unless it pertains to the artcles I have written. I have allowed every comment to be posted to date.

The platforms we support have been validated through several different "channels". Murrays engineering test video being one of them.

It has taken me days to read the articles and forum of this site. But as someonew who is looking at putting up a chain of  public access locations in NY I will be contacting you privately Lloyd for advice on who to deal with in the US. IT seems not everybody is on the same level as you.

It has turned everyting I thought on its head.     

The man Dan Fivey from your blacklist has been fired from VibroGym apparently because of your boycott.  It was costing them sales.

How many people manage to stay in business after being put on that thing. best weapon ever.

Jim

Welcome to the forum, and congratulations on your recent purchase. I have 2 vibrogyms and one vibratrain and the vibragyms are still a hard workout after 4 years so i think you will be very happy with your purchase.

Make sure you come back and tell us about your experience when it arrives

Mike

Hi All,

 I wanted to put a post in as a reader of over a year, and now as a future vibration machine owner. This is a very big step for me, and I wanted to let folks know what my experiences have been in the process, why I am making the decision I am, and hopefully will update here to let you know what the process of getting and using a machine is like. I should ship in about 3 weeks. I appreciate all the helpful advice I can get!

But first a bit of background. I am a mid 50’s guy in the US. The only machine near by to try has been the powerplate. This forum and the previous one have been extremely helpful in getting me educated to the point of making this large dollar investment. When the other site effectively shut down, I went googling for Lloyd Shaw, with whom I have corresponded a bit going back a couple of years. So I found this site, and again emailed him and asked about machines.

I have been looking for a larger machine, One which I will not “Peak Out” on in a few years time. My background is that I am a machine design engineer, who has had his own manufacturing company, so I am not a babe in the woods with respect to a few of the design and manufacturing issues. I also know a bit about design and manufacturing problems that can arise. For this reason, as well as others, I RARELY buy cheap machines. I have spent too much time fiddling with them to get them to stay working that it is just not worth it for me. As well, I have found that it is not like working to bring a classically engineered machine back into working order (like a well engineered classic automobile) but rather like reengineering and essentially rebuilding a piece of junk knowing it will never be “right” but might be “functional”. Anyway, perhaps that is enough to let you know what I value as a user, and what I am willing to pay for.

Based on Lloyd’s suggestions, I checked out the Body Shaker, the VibroGym, and the True Vibe. Early on I was very seriously looking into the Hypergravity, but I am extremely glad that I passed on that one! As you can see these are some of the heavier and more expensive units around. I liked the Body Shaker, and the price was good, the Vibrogym seemed to be the standard bearer. It’s been around quite a while, was the original machine that studies were done on, as I understand it, and the design and construction has stood the test of time. In looking into the True Vibe, and contacting them, I got a bit of the back story filled in.

In the end I decided on the True Vibe machine from Kevin Barkley-Webb. Kevin was the top salesman for VibroGym, understands the machines and their uses very well, and I am told that the True Vibe machines are made by the same company as the VibroGym machines: quality motors, good electronics, and a proved frame. I have had some experience with the small design engineering-manufacturing houses in this part of the Netherlands, and respect their work, a lot.  In talking with Kevin, he seemed to have a very good grasp of the machines and their uses, almost a personal trainer type. Of everybody I communicated with he seemed the most “into” the use of the machine, instead of just “into” selling the machine.

One thing that I really like about Lloyds machines are the handlebars. It makes so much sense as muscles need to be worked on in opposing pairs. Kevin is of the opinion that his machine with straps will give a good workout. We’ll see. Another thing that I am curious about is starting with a static set of poses, but then introducing movement as I get stronger. I know this board is against that but I want to learn more about controlled movement. I am taking a break, but I have been doing yoga flow, and want to build back up to be able to do it again.

So this post is long enough, but let me sum up: I bought a True Vibe, because I think it is a great machine at a good price, Kevin was a very knowledgeable salesman who obviously knows and uses his product, and of course, comes well regarded by Lloyd.

Let me belabor this last point. I have known a lot of people who create, or push breakthrough products or processes. No disrespect to Lloyd, who I respect a lot, but these people do not tend to be of the milk-toast variety. They tend to be outspoken, perhaps confrontational at times. In order to stand up for what you think is right, you need to first Stand Up. Many do not like that, in and of itself. That is why I harp on focusing on the product or the process, and not the personality. It’s the only way to move forward.

Gabriel,

You can email pdfs to notnospam@gmail.com.

 Having been away from the forum for a day or two - it's hard to catch up with what's gone on!  Re the Hypergravity 'bashing' issue, I don't remember anyone saying the Hypergravity machines were not good when they work.  They key being, when they work!  3/3 of my machines caused major problems.  Where I think bad feeling arose was when, having tried to fix them on numerous occasions, it became clear the machines were not fit for purpose.  Had the company dealt with that honestly and taken this as part of a learning curve (they were after all the biggest platforms on the market other than Lloyd's and were somewhat of an experiment) there would not have been bad feeling.  There was, unfortunately wriggling, evasion and deceit.  It is these things that made the company impossible to recommend.  It it not just the product that is part of a recommendation, it is the integrity and reliability of the company that forms an equal part of a recommendation and on this basis Hypergravity are not a viable choice. 

I think it is probably fair to say there was probably a personal sense of being let down on Lloyd's behalf.  Without doubt, when he believed in both the product and its integrity, Lloyd championed the company.  Having dealt with them I can say from personal experience that the before sale and after sale manner of Josh are very  very different!  When things went belly-up with me, Lloyd worked extremely hard as a go-between to try to salvage the situation; to help Josh keep his reputation and help keep me from  a white coat and padded cell as motor after motor burned out.  I believe it is a great pity that things turned out the way they did as the Hypergravities had so much potential.  Had the company dealt with their mistakes in a diffferent way I believe things would have been different.

You are perhaps fortunate Gabriel not to have to have dealt with them when it it is not fair weather.  These forums are about sharing personal experiences.  You present your positive view of the company, I present my less positive experiences.  People can then make up their own minds.  This is the beauty of a more informal forum.

First off, what you did in this situation was, in my opinion, the completely right call and I have never implied that you lack knowledge or passion in your pursuit of refining this industry and protecting the consumer.

As far as this situation is concerned however, the "evidence" that you are using is that when machinery is designed improperly, it can be harmful to any person or persons using it. Also, the "evidence" suggests that some companies looking to make money first, will compromise the safety of their customer. This is enoiugh legitimate evidence to support your claim that powerplate is unsafe and the problem should be corrected.

Having that been said, there is no evidence that the "3D" motion of the platform would have been harmful to the user.  Although shearing forces have been shown to be destructive to joints, so has vibration been shown to damage nerves and cause all sorts of physical injury. However, when vibration is controlled and limited in exposure, it seems not only safe, but beneficial to the body. The body undergoes shearing forces all day long, but we cannot know to what extent those forces are unsafe vs.potentially beneficial to the connective tissue system. There is technically some amount of horizontal shear with pivotal and this is the "scare tactic" preferred by lineal companies to make sales, but the research cannot support its danger to the body so this claim is false until proven otherwise.

Like I said, it would be nice if certain people had the ability to direct the traffic in VT sales unbiased and with 100 percent consumer interest in mind, but this is not the case and never will be as "perception" and individual experience drives these recommendations...something that can never be unbiased. Since this isnt the case, we have to use some sort of tangible outcomesor acceptable evidence to make a statment about what benefits can and cannot be obtainable with a specific platform.

Gabriel,

Well I might like to see the pdfs. As you may know, the Contour Plus was introduced in 2009. I'm not sure what the timeline was for the other models. I do know the Contour is a plastic Chinese model; the rest Canadian. And I have seen videos of an older model which had a rectangular platform. Depending on when your study was done, that could be the one looked at. The only Wave I have been able to actually test was a Pro Elite.

I kind of hope it's not too much like a Power Plate. I might settle for something at least as powerful as the better Power Plates and way more reliable.

On a completely different topic  (sorry to intrude guys) –

Yesterday a couple, customers at the studio where I work, said I had recently banned told their daughter and told her not to return.   

I can’t remember specifically banning someone, I probably told her not return if she was going to continue to waste her time and mine (as instructor responsible her safe training and results) by messing about and not doing the program properly. Or maybe, by refusing to eat before coming in for a session – which is non-negotiable.    http://www.vibration-training-advice.com/why-eat-before-a-vibration-training-workout

In all the discussions of machine specs and qualities we can sometimes forget these basics – to get a good workout that gives good results (on any machine) the program must be followed exactly.  The IVTRB Safety program (poster and instructions) is used worldwide by many studios using lineal machines and a variation of this program will very soon be released for use with pivotal platforms.

Yesterday I also corrected two customers (strongly worded correction) who had decided they could rearrange the program order because “they preferred it that way”.  And I saw Lloyd explain to one why she couldn’t do a position side resting on her elbow and forearm (as some do on machines of less force. It would have been unsafe on the machine she was using and unwise on most brands of machines so it’s not a pose in the IVTRB Safety Program).  

The Vibra-Train brand take all of the parts of Vibration Training very seriously – I’m really proud to be part of this.

Check out the link below... This is the very reason why people struggle to get their head aroung this industry. Bloody marketeers bashing one system because they sell the other.

http://www.hypergravity.net/Oscillatingvslinear.html

Now check out what some one who cares about this industry says below

http://www.vibration-training-advice.com/no-such-thing-as-a-bad-machine