Please read through the articles that cover your questions, or topic of conversation before posting, as understanding the basics give the community a better chance of helping you.Please Note: Most of the frequently asked questions we have had over the years have their own article already.
I have always said time has a way of sorting out the bullshit.
I have tried many machines in my last 5 years of vibration training and if mass was not an important part of the equation, than i would not have busted my balls to get a machine that weighs close to 250kg and excerts 3 ton of pressure.
It has a lot to do with muscle growth as working out on the vibrogym for over 2 years kept me toned but as soon as i started using a vibratrain my muscles growth started again. I have a lot of young guys that have grown a lot of muscle on the bigger heavier machine.
I guess Dr cardinale needs to try a real machine before any of his studies can be taken seriously.
If the whole point to the recommendations were to enable researchers to match what the machine actually does, to results, so they can then be repeated by another researcher. ( Instead of just relying on what the manufacturer says on the box, which is exactly what a whole bunch of these so called experts did in the past ) . Then why not list ALL parameters. Leaving even one out gives unethical marketers room to move.
I would also like people to look up Dr Marco Cardinales work and point out any paper he has written where he names exactly what the machine is doing. As opposed to what the display reads. The ONLY person I have ever seen do this was David Bassett-Jones who clearly stated the manufactures claims ( Power Plates ) were not the same as recorded.
I invite Dr Marco Cardinale on to this forum to point out where he himself has followed his own recommendations, and listed variances in his research.
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-09-07 13:31:10
Well just been in Email contact with Dr Marco Cardinale. Where he proceeded to tell me the mass x acceleration / inertia equation of the machines makes no difference to anything. FQ and Amplitude / G-Forces are everything.
This from a self professed "expert" in the field.
My opinion is ..........
They are all fake experts or real idiots.
Because there is no way that anybody who has actually used a steel Vibro-Gym and then a plastic Power Plate alongside each other ( that on an accelerometer tests would measure basically the same ) would suggest they give similar results. And apparently my level 1-5 machines all do the same thing. Because they all run at 3mm/ 43hz.
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-09-06 11:14:58
For those of you who have followed our relationship with Dr. Marco Cardinale Head of Sports Science and Research of the British Olympic Association ( researcher who Power Plate claimed to be on their fake Scientific Advisory Board )
His exact words on the subject......
"A company has briefly listed my name on a list of scientific experts without my agreement and I made sure my name was deleted form the list.
I was recently made aware that some individuals/companies claim that I have some sort of involvement in the development of their products and/or I advise them or use their products. Again, I would like to state that I am not consulting companies that produce vibration training devices."
"Finally, I was also made aware that some individuals/companies claim that I have been deleted from the scientific advisory board of another company because I was still involved with the late Prof. Bosco's enterprise. This is another Lie"
As he is quoted in the media from time to time, we asked him to do something solid about it. But he declined saying "it wasn't his fight" He simply let then get away with it. Power Plate love people like this as it makes their lies so much easier to hide. But at least we know he cant be trusted to stand up for the consumer.
Anyway some of his latest work was to be part of a recommendation paper for researchers of Vibration Training ( WBV ) Search Google for the PDF version under ....
Reporting whole-body vibration intervention studies: Recommendations of the International Society of Musculoskeletal and Neuronal Interactions
" invited experts in the field were to provide suggestions on how the intervention should be described in such reports "
These "invited experts" basically spend their time repeating what we have been saying for 6 years. And even manage to miss some pretty important stuff. But I suppose at least its a start.
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-08-31 18:04:44
The theory of myogenesis ( growing new muscle cells ) from Vibration Training is slowly being taken seriously by the academic community.
They are still not getting the complete picture , inertia equations etc... and seemingly concentrating on Fq. Wondering why the higher Fq gets better results
I am happy to report this site is now sitting at #3 on Google in the U.K. for the search term "Vibration Training"
We are ahead of all the marketing and retail companies that throw money into being at the top.
Proof that information is something that people still want. Which is bad news for any dishonest salespeople out there. And good news for those companies striving to be better.
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-08-30 15:18:09
I understand everybody is learning all the time, so we cant expect anybody to know everything.
But when a company like Power Plate claims to be a "World Leader" you would think they would at least know the basics . Amateurs and con-artists is a more accurate label.
MikeHair
Posted On:2010-08-30 09:13:48
Great article Lloyd, its good that people see from an engineers point of view that there is so much more to building a quality vibration training machine than just attaching a couple of motors to a platform. Powerplate certaintly have a lot to answer for when it comes to quality.
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-08-29 10:27:25
Mini Article...
Why don't my isolators work.....?
Was contacted this week by someone who fixed Power Plates for a living and they had managed to get a box of isolators from Vibro-Gym. But when he stuck them on the platform wouldn't vibrate. Even though it was clearly trying too. Now he had been told by Power Plate " the motors are the same, so it will work" So in an attempt to get a real answer he contacted me.
So why didn't they work .....
Simple. The isolators are usually made of rubber. And rubber comes in what they call "shore hardness" ( aka how hard the rubber is on number scale ) So normal foam would be a 30, a car tyre would be a 90 etc...
The isolators are pushed and pulled by the machine as it moves. But a number of factors go into how much force is applied to the rubber. One of them being the weight behind the movement. Now the VibroGym is made of steel, the Power Plate is made of plastic. So even though both materials are being pushed around by the same motors, the force on the rubber varies quite considerable. In this case the Power Plate had lost so much energy by using plastic that it didn't even have enough force to overcome the isolators. Confusing the technician.
How it applies to the user ...?
If the machine is fighting its own design faults constantly. It will lose lots of energy. Meaning your workout will give lesser results even though you might be doing everything correctly.
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-08-19 14:14:36
Read this folks ......
Proof that someone can tell the truth and still get a sale. No fake specs needed. Just realistic results based on what the machine can actually do.
I think if you contact Mike, he actually had 2 machines. 0272 576908
Kym
Posted On:2010-08-19 13:46:46
Thank you for your advice and info Lloyd. I missed out on Mikes machine and am trying to compare the one you commented on on TM last night and the Australian Hypervibe Performance Whole Body machine as a high energy lineal is outside my price range. I am wanting to lose weight, get and stay fit, strong, and improve bone density. My son would like to stay fit and improve muscle mass. He is the tall thin type. I thought once I had one a few trips to Hamilton or Tauranga to learn how to use it properly would be a good idea but 2hrs driving 3 times a week is a bit out of the question. Any advice would be much appreciated as I dont want to buy a machine and then find it wont do what I want it to. Thank you
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-08-19 12:59:40
Kym....
(1) The main difference between any Pivotal or Lineal system is the ability to surpass the standard Hyper-Gravity formula which is FQ x Amplitude.
Basically that is where the machine tries to lift you up, against the pull of gravity, temporarily making you heavier. All Medium Energy Lineal and all Pivotal systems are limited to this effect. Medium Energy Lineal because they are physically too light. High Speed Pivotal because it has an axis. ( think of a see-saw in a park, if someone tries to put more energy into it than needed and it smashes into the ground. It almost breaks the pivot point in the middle).
High Energy Lineal adds inertia into the formula. So the workout literally feels heavier and it can be much shorter. In a commercial setting very important so your customers can progress past just staying on a machine longer and longer. Mike Hair can attest to this, as he has run both systems over an extended period of time.
Note: The time factor is not so important for people at home, so a good Pivotal machine has its place in the market.
How it really changes the workout: The extra inertia can also create new high tone muscle quite quickly, and hence burn more fat. But again there is a price involved in getting this effect, there is no way to produce force cheaply. So home ownership is highly unlikely for anything truly High Energy.
(2) Elite Fitness are not measuring anything. That is the problem. In those machines case they are just quoting the power source ( which in N.Z. 240v 50-60hz ) to deliberately try and confuse the consumer. ( I have dealt with them personally, and they are very dishonest ). For anyone with even a small amount of experience, simply putting your foot on the machine would tell you it is not running at 50-60hz
" Vibration Training Plate Specialist" indeed.
Kym
Posted On:2010-08-19 11:27:10
Hi. I have read a lot of this site and found it VERY good and watched several youtube videos. Can someone answer a couple of questions for me please. What is the difference workout wise between the high energy lineal, and premium speed pivotal machines. I know with the first both sides go up,down together and the 2nd alternate. It seems that the high energy lineal machines are extremely pricey for personal use but the closest commercial machines are over an hour from where I live. The 2nd question is on the 2nd grade machines like Elite Fitness VIB558 11 what are they measuring to get 50-60Hz if they are not honestly doing this. Thank you for your help.
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-08-18 20:11:37
Good example of how lazy most salespeople are.
Some guy called Jim Rollince from a company Gym Source, that sell home gym equipment. Contact Di Heap to see if he could be a contributor to her website ( www.vibeplus.com ) And guess what he sells, that’s right Power Plate.
I don’t think the email he got back was very welcoming. LOL
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-08-12 12:52:38
Carol...
Here are the current prices for some Pivotal machines..
Crazy-Fit , Gym Form Vibro Max etc... $300 --- $1400 ( depending on where you get it from even though from same factory. )
T-Zone ------ $1200 ( $ Aus )
NitroFit ------- $1000 -- $2500 ( $ U.S. ) Price depends on model.
Galileo ------ $7800 ----- $19,000 ( $ Aus ) Price depends on model.
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-08-10 14:57:29
Carol...
It really depends on what price you are willing to pay, and if you actually intend using the machine regularly. Because then after sales support becomes important .
Eg... The really cheap Crazy-Fit , Gym-Form Vibro Max etc... machines can give some results ( if used with proper exercise poses, not standing watching TV like they show on the adverts ) But they will break and you will get no support. Notice the only ones you see for sale second hand on auction sites have only been used about 3 times. ( By the owners own admition most of the time ) . You never see one that was used "all the time" and the person just got bored. This is not a coincidence, the rest are at the rubbish tip or in the garage broken.
Note: If they break they cost more to fix than buying a new one.
Units like the T-Zone are better quality and come with after sales support. Similar design but usually run a bit faster, giving a better workout. They also tend to be more honest in what you have to do to get results pose wise.
There is also companies like NitroFit -- U.S. that sell good Pivotal units.
Then you can go all the way up to a Galileo, but you have to be prepared to pay for that kind of quality.
My advice, I think going for a medium priced unit with a reputable company is the best choice if you are in the market for a Pivotal home machine.
Carol
Posted On:2010-08-10 11:52:21
Great site guys. Took a while to read it but worth the effort. What do you really think of the pivotal machines they sell on the internet. Completely worthless or what
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-08-07 10:55:58
Just to recap head of Soloflex Jerry Wilsons statements .......
( and remember this is not some uneducated salesperson )
When Soloflex first began selling WBV equipment I had no idea what kind of feedback we’d be getting. The most surprising was that a few people were reporting losing fat. I still don’t understand how that could happen but why would anyone report that if it didn’t happen? One lady claimed she lost 30 pounds.
As for high levels of vibration being necessary to induce the conditioning effects, this is clearly repudiated by the Juvent device, a certified medical device that operates below .3g’s. Vibration is just vibration, regardless of the mechanical method chosen to induce it. Perhaps there is a “most efficient” device on the market but everyone selling the expensive WBV Platforms claims that title with their “proprietary” advantage.
Note : Juvent did not claim weight loss was achieved or achievable from their low amplitude, High Fq unit .
Several of our customers have reported significant weight loss simply standing and stretching on our WBV Platform. I didn’t expect this (and it’s hardly a scientific study) but you’ve explained pretty well why it could happen. Thanks
Note: No exercise poses needed, no extra weights needed. He is very clear on this point.
In both statements I think it is clear Jerry Wilson of SoloFlex is deliberately trying to perpetrate the myth that" all and any" vibration causes weight loss, and the construction of the machine makes zero difference. I think everybody involved in the industry will agree this is a bald faced lie.
As as I have often said " if any vibration made you lose weight, all truck drivers would be skinny"
He is the enemy of everyone who takes this science seriously. And his company is to be blacklisted for this reason.
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-08-06 14:41:15
Was informed today that 3 Gyms in Townsville were calling their Chinese made Gym Form machines Vibra-Train machines. Made contact with them and hopefully that's the end of it.
But what gets me is these gyms buy machines not even remotely similar to training machines, and tell people it is. Giving a very bad impression of what Vibration Training is all about. I mean if they are not clued up enough to get fooled into buying these machines in the first place, what other advice are they giving. That standing on it for 10 mins staring at the wall will help you lose weight ?
I mean really what Gym owner would believe an infomercial ?
Lloyd Shaw
Posted On:2010-08-03 16:15:57
ADVERTISING OPTIONS FOR VIBRATION-TRAINING-ADVICE COM
Home base for the I.V.T.R.B. ------ International Vibration Training Regulating Body ---------
With the new website now up and fully running, and attracting traffic , its time to look at weather you want to advertise on the site, and to what degree you wish to have exposure.
Front page cover , and on all subsequent pages for $600 ( N.Z.) Per Month. Being on the front page will allow not only them to be the first adverts the consumer sees ( and uncluttered by Google adverts ), it also gives us a chance to clearly state you are a recommended company to deal with. Any consumer looking for a machine or advice on the new forum will be directed to one of the companies on that list. We view the fact you choose to advertise on this site as not only a commercial decision, but also one supporting our actions to keep the industry clean and hence trusted by the consumer.
You do not need to be selling the most expensive machines to be supported by the community and advertise on this site. Just clear and precise marketing into your particular category is needed.
Note: You will also be automatically given a listing on option 2 at no extra charge that will stay up for the remainder of the year, even if you cancel your front page advert.
Important point for your sales team .... As a supporter of the site and community, you will be mentioned as often as possible on the forum when applicable, with free referrals given by the community. Your fees will be put back into the site development.
This list is accessed from the top of the articles and is simply called "Where to buy a machine " This is $350 (N.Z.) per year to be listed on, and with the self explanatory title should attract the attention of those looking to buy a machine. A simple, cheap and effective way to get your product some exposure. Again we will be making it clear your product has been "allowed" onto the site because of its higher standard at every opportunity.
Banner/Link + Contact details
Note: The site will be further highlighting the sometimes massive difference in product quality in the marketplace, by actually listing companies/products that are NOT allowed to advertise on the site.
Again this list is accessed from the top of the articles and is simply called "Where to use a machine " This is only $100 (N.Z.) per year This is for Studios, Gyms , Physios etc...carrying machines we believe to be of high enough quality as to do the Vibration Training Industry the justice it deserves.
We will also be asking all premises listed to carry the "safety program" as an option for customers . As in the other forum we were quite often asked how good the training was at a far away studio none of us had trained at, so I believe reassuring the consumer a base program we all carried, was available to them on request, should give the consumer further confidence we are organized, communicate and are safety conscious. This will not restrict you from doing your own programs, that you can introduce to the customer once they have settled in.
Physios will of course not be expected to offer the program.
Note: This is also a place manufacturers should suggest their clients list themselves as it not only helps their numbers but increases exposure to your product.
If you are interested in being listed under either option please contact me back and I will inform you what we need.
Modified and fixed a Fit-Vibes isolation system last week ( no charge as I had spare ones that fitted his machines floating around ) . The guy who had them was going to have to front up with $8000 to keep his 4 machines running properly.
Elite-Fitness ( N.Z.) had failed to tell him this was guaranteed to happen, of course.
I do not think they realize that is 800 sessions @ $10 a session, he would have to do. Not to earn $1 profit, just to keep open. A small business just can not afford to have to do that. Other parts need replacing on occasion as well he was not told about.
As a consumer you need to get in writing from a company, which parts normally "wear and tear" and how much they will be to replace.
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-08-02 14:27:15
I personally love it when PowerPlate customers come into the studio, I truly light up. And watching their faces as they realize they have been sold a lot of BS. I even have a machine that can produce the same amount of force as a Power Plate so they can directly compare. And I also have an original steel Power Plate so they can feel what going from steel to plastic did to the brand.
No amount of marketing can turn them back to cheaper machines after just one experience on the real thing.
Di Heap
Posted On:2010-08-02 13:05:08
I had a customer at Vibra-Train Auckland this morning who had just returned from England.She usually does Vibration Training at Vibra-Train’s Tauranga Studio (150Km/95 miles away) where she lives but came here between her flight arrival and bus home.
While visiting relatives in England she’d been using Power Plate Acceleration Training in a studio.
She told me how happy she was to be back at Vibra-Train as the machines are so much more powerful.Also she preferred the Safety Program using relaxed, static positions rather than moving about on the plate as she’d done at PowerPlate.
She also said loved the ability to just drop in to Vibra-Train rather than having to fit what she needed to do around the Power Plate Class Timetable appointment time. (all exactly what she said, I didn’t even ask)
Make me realise, once again, how much our business model differs from others.With 9 machines here of varying levels when customers come in it’s rare to have to wait. Some studios have 3 or 4 machines but with fast, effective, 10-15 minutes sessions any waiting time is short.
The other thing I noticed was that she was “Position Perfect”.I stayed with her while she trained as she was tired but she didn’t need any correction.By using the Vibra-Train Safety Program with its precise instructions (used in our studios and others worldwide) she had leant exactly how to get the best vibration training workout possible.
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-08-01 09:17:19
Tina.
You have mentioned a pretty wide range of products there. Power Plate being the weakest and least effective, DKN a definite step up from them, BodyShaker and VibroGym being more powerful.
We really also need to know where it is going because not all machines can go in all locations.
Di Heap
Posted On:2010-08-01 00:34:16
Tina
Are you wanting a home machine or to use one in a studio or gym?
What results do you want to achieve and which brands can you access?
At home you have other things to consider like where the machine will be placed. Have you read any of the articles on this website?
Tina
Posted On:2010-07-31 21:32:23
Of these brands,dkn powerplate, vibrogym bodyshaker which one is the most powerful.
Thanks in advance.
PhilippaCHurch
Posted On:2010-07-31 01:45:25
Well done to Kevin, I have no doubt he will make a real success of it and hopefully put a big dent in Power Plates sales and reputation. Looking forward to seeing the new machine.
MikeHair
Posted On:2010-07-30 17:19:06
Congratulations to Kevin Barclay-Webb I wish him success and its good that he is pushing true vibration training...Wont be long and Power Plate will be a thing of the past
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-07-30 15:29:57
Well Power Plate split back in 03 to form VibroGym. Now Kevin Barclay-Webb who did a lot for both companies ( essentially their top salesperson ) is now forming True-Vibe.
He is apparently going to be pushing "True" Vibration Training. The principles we teach and preach on this site.
