Please read through the articles that cover your questions, or topic of conversation before posting, as understanding the basics give the community a better chance of helping you.Please Note: Most of the frequently asked questions we have had over the years have their own article already.
I would normally just be inclined to think he was a bit thick.
But the fact he seeked out and reviewed the SoloFlex as a Vibration Training platform, "after" he obtained information from us it was fake. Then refused to tests a real machine makes him look more dishonest than anything else. It must be noted that before he had even laid eyes on a machine he had publically stated .............
" Vibration Training .....is based in fake science "
He then spent the next 4 years trying to justify his lack of understanding something that is not that complicated. Something that someone with his claimed qualifications should have at least understood the theory of. I always told him time and science was on our side and he will be made the poster boy for ignorance and arrogance.
Mike Hair
Posted On:2010-06-15 16:38:03
Fantastic work Lloyd.... It amuses me how people like Sal think that being dishonest will never catch up with them.
After never trying a proper high energy lineal machine Sal proceeded to tell people that they don't work and in the process may have influenced a lot of people from actually getting off the couch and saving there own lives.
I thank God that you, Lloyd, never forget... Sal needs to be made an example of...
I take particular offense about what he says, and all my customers do too, he is basically calling us stupid by saying this technology does not work. The amount of muscle i have personally put on since using this technology is awesome, the guys that put in the hard yards while training with me have not only grown bigger in muscle size but also increased there strength heaps.
One woman in particular could not do one press up when she first arrived six months later with no other training she can now do 30 press ups on her toes.
So Sal, I am personally looking forward one day to meeting face to face and hearing how you got it so so wrong!
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-06-15 12:08:49
For anyone thinking putting in effort to expose Sal Marinello for what he is, is unprofessional or over the top.
This guy singled our people by name, called them liars and simple minded, if they had anything positive to say about Vibration Training. Using his power and friends at Blog-Critics to bully and censor all those who questioned his expertise. He did some very unethical things to stop people finding out the truth.
He needs to be knocked off his perch.
But it is also important to note that a number of industry experts have also made statements with ulteriour motives in mind...
From what I have read researchers and academics do get very specific about particular fqs and amplitudes when they start trying to sell something.
This from Dr Clinton Rubin of Juvent
Please note that our research has no relationship whatsoever with the technology or claims made by vibration plates used for exercise and physical training and manufactured by companies such as Galaxy, Galileo, Power-Plate, NEMES, etc. The magnitudes used in those devices, well in excess of 8.0g, are well beyond the limits recommended for human tolerance by ISO and OSHA, are 35 times greater in amplitude than those mechanical signals that we study, are perhaps dangerous, and to my knowledge, there is little if any evidence that their devices do anything good to bone. These devices are DANGEROUS, and the consequences of use have never been studied in any form.
This from Scott Hopson of Power Plate
Amplitude is everything,” is what Power Plate’s Hopson said at a seminar at the March 2006 IHRSA conference, running down a laundry list of everything it does. “This,” he added to the group of trainers and club managers, “is gold dust.”
They both use research as their basis for an argument, but I think it is obvious where the attitude really comes from. They will both ignore antidotal evidence on the street because it doesn’t suit their sales strategy.
Di Heap
Posted On:2010-06-15 11:56:23
To Sal, I ask, "If Vibration Training doesn't do anything then why am I currently experiencing a serious de-training effect while I'm not able to use the Vibra-Train machines and it's only been three weeks?"
I'd been training three times a week and being so familiar with the machine action I'd doubled up on a few of the positions - I was an advanced user. No other training apart from walking a mile home from work. Now I have muscle aches, especially biceps, triceps and quads and I'm watching my arm muscles literally fall apart (I was very proud of my biceps so I'm not happy). I can't explain this by any lack of daily activity as I wasn't doing anything that would build muscle. Inactivity and drugs might be contributing to muscle loss but how did I get the high muscle percentage I had if Vibration Training is useless and a gimmick?
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-06-15 09:57:58
Once again to clarify Sal Marinello's comments regarding the development of these machines. Such was his resistance to new ideas he went to the length of writing almost a dozen articles telling people to not even try Vibration Training for themselves. Completely unethical and obviously had motives beyond protecting the consumer.
"Vibration Training shouldn’t be taken seriously.”
“Vibration Training does nothing to improve muscle tone and balance”
“it doesn’t matter what company makes this type of machine, as they are all junk.”
“in an effort to clarify, I think Vibration Training is garbage. the different machines are just different brands of garbage.”
” the fantasy of Vibration Training.”
“Vibration Training is useless “
" Vibration Therapy is a gimmick, plain and simple, I cant see one positive about it "
If anyone else put more time and effort into stopping our industry develop, I am unaware of them. Sal Marinello is someone I am going to be publically targeting in the future because of the deliberate and persistent action he took against us. The public need to be aware that people like this exist, and are allowed to write articles.
He needs to be exposed as an intellectual fraud and not qualified to critic anything more complicated than a rock.
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-06-15 09:37:29
What Dr Brendan Humphries , a Senior Lecturer within
CQUniversity’s School of Health and Human Performance in the
Faculty of Arts, Health and Science has to say about Vibration Training.......
Dr Humphries, who has a special interest in bone and muscle development and decided to conduct some experiments of his own with a
group of experienced male weight trainers........
“I couldn’t explain what was happening in the early stages. We were finding marked changes in the individuals we were
doing research with. I found that strength levels increased by about 30 per cent across the board. Most of the guys said
they couldn’t just go to a gym and add a 30 per cent load –they would fail.
They couldn’t believe this would happen to them. The more research I did, and the more experiments I conducted,
I found positives in everything I did.”
The application, he believes, isn’t limited to high-end athletes. Dr Humphries will soon release a paper about the effects WBV training can have on 20 to 30-year-old women to maximise their peak bone mass, the idea being it will help stave off osteoporosis in later years. Further work is also being done with the use of the therapy on post-menopausal women.
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-06-13 13:23:01
Kirkregular....
Firstly make sure you never try to compare Pivotal to Lineal training. The more you understand the more you will realize just how different they are.
The G-Forces again only play a small part in full Vibration Training. That is only there to gain a HyperGravity load. Which is where the plate is trying to lift you up, but gravity is holding you down. But because you are not tethered to the machine what the G-Force reading on the plate, may not be actually what you experience. Which is how some machines can look good on acceleration tests and on paper but still feel weak and is why I do not think having the g-forces displayed in advertising would help much.
Please note: Hg training is not as hard core as an added inertia equation which actually replicated a drop jumping eccentric contraction.
If you are using a Pivotal machine, you peak at the HyperGravity equation and hence load.
On a lineal unit, theoretically the faster it goes the more inertia it can create, but again theoretically you can only make the machine move so fast or your muscles can not keep up and you can burn the motor and bearings out.
Eg.. We used to run the Vibro-Gyms at 50 hz because 40 hz ( it had no in-between settings ) was too light. The plastic Power Plates were too light for even 50 hz to work.
So the lighter the machine, the faster it needs to run. I recommend 43Hz because in my tests it showed to give the best overall function for the machine and results. You will find no research you can trust on different machines to find a "best of Fq".
Except for Pivotal, which is 27Hz.
kirkregular
Posted On:2010-06-13 00:42:41
Lloyd,
I have a fitness studio so the results I am looking for is increased strength and muscle tone. And I realize, thanks to you, that the power of the plate makes a big difference. But power is not a variable that can be manipulated on an existing vibration plate. I wanted to know what frequency you use on the Vibratrain and why. What research out there backs up what the best frequency is to use on a lineal machine regardless of how powerful it is. Also, what is the force of a Vibratrain machine. My Galileo machines have a posted G force in the specifications. Most other machines in the market do not and maybe that is something that should be pushed more in the industry.
Kirk Regular
p.s. Why can I use question marks or other punctuation on this blog site. Is it my Canadian keyboard
Keith
Posted On:2010-06-12 03:16:27
Lloyd, Ive just tried it and what a difference training in socks. Its almost a feeling of oneness with the machine.
Positioning is easier especially the one about sliding off the plate in the wide squat if the position is not spot on. 70 percent of the weight on the heels, no problem in socks to say nothing of the increased intensity of the training.
What was easy before has become a strain during the last 10 seconds. Its almost like a different machine. Wow.
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-06-10 09:01:31
All you will find is conflicting research. For 2 main reasons...
(a) The construction of the machine plays a far larger part in the muscles response than the Fq. Something all the "academics" could not figure out for themselves apparently. So different machines on the same Fq gave different results in the research.
(b) It depends what those " best results" are. Eg.. Are you looking for actual body composition change or just muscle movement, circulation etc.... EMG tests showed 27hz to be best for inducing a stretch reflex,, but no muscle growth. But then the machines were very light.
So the question should be ...... What machine are you using, and what response are you looking for ?
Can anyone point me to any research as to the ideal frequency to use on a lineal vibration machine. I know you use 43Hz on a Vibratrain and most others use the range of 30 45 Hz but which is ideal. similar to 26Hz on a Galileo.
Thanks,
Kirk
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-06-10 06:39:00
As you found out delivery of the vibration has to be precise.
I still cant believe we are the only company that has a 45 degree angle for 90 degree Lineal transference. Without this your feet would not only just flop around on top like dead fish, but lose all pressure in the vibration and make it impossible to get the angles correct.
Di Heap
Posted On:2010-06-09 21:26:03
I'm recovering from two surgeries and have obturator and maybe other nerve damage in pelvis and top of legs, am improving well.
Today I sat in a chair in front of the Vibra-Train machine and put my feet onto a mat on the angled front of the machine. (angled front designed for this use) Machine set on usual 43Hz, legs angled at 110 degrees, same as the squat. I did only 30 seconds then stopped as leg angle wasn't perfect causing discomfort in pelvis. Adjusted position and did a further 60 seconds.
We use this seated, simulated squat, position for people who cannot stand on the machine. I hoped to improve my legs aching and give gentle circulation increase to pelvic area.
Even though I work with Vibra-Train machines I was totally amazed at the result - I was able to stand up straighter and walk easier and hours later I have less pain. I am "blown away". Even though I have used this seated position with customers I could not have imagined the difference 90 seconds of controlled lineal vibration can make.
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-06-05 10:08:03
The reason the machines sound loud recording with a microphone, is because the air pressure waves that hit a microphone get turned back into sound.
The larger the machines surface, the bigger the wave.
Philippa church
Posted On:2010-06-05 07:17:07
Hi demon, yes course you can come see both machines, give us a call. Am guessing your name is not demon, so would help if I can give your name to my staff to look out for. Actually the vibra trains are the quietest of the steel machines, think it\'s just the way it comes out on video but yes when all are on it\'s not the most peaceful but very manageable.
Demon
Posted On:2010-06-05 01:20:39
ooops,sorry for the delay... back to my "pornstar experience":
She showed me some clever poses, poses that I did not do on DKN plus we did some "dynamic" things like holding medicine-ball in straight arms and slowly rotating upper half of the body, nothing more... nothing like boxing ;-) I definitely think the difference was the machine, not the exercises.
Now I am going to test Bodyshaker Junior, I would be totally happy if it would give me training at least as good as PP but for half the money :-)
BTW Philippa, do you still have some Bodyshakers in your studio in Ampthill? I'd love to "kill two flies with one slam" and try also Vibra-Train. BTW2 Are VT machines really that noisy as it seems in the video? It must be really difficult for staff to be there the whole day...
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-06-02 06:43:07
From a purely scientific point of view, no shoes is best. Really good to keep and eye out for consistent heel pressure. And if you even think someone is not doing the wide-stance properly, putting them in socks is a great way to find out. They just slide off the machine.
But from a hygiene + Health Dept view, its always a no-no.
Kevin has left VG and set up his own company. True Vibrations Ltd.
KirkRegular
Posted On:2010-06-02 05:46:49
Shoes or no shoes
We have been recommending people wear only socks on the vibration machine as a good pair of running shoes would absorb some of the vibration. Does anyone else have any feedback
Kirk Regular
Philippa church
Posted On:2010-06-02 01:28:34
I thought kevin barclay webb was head of vibrogym uk now?
Di Heap
Posted On:2010-06-01 00:11:55
Warning To buyers of Home Vibration Machines from online auctions (TradeMe in New Zealand), Fitness Stores, and As-Seen-On-TV infomercial sales:
Make sure you are buying the correct type and quality of machine for your intended use and the results you expect to get.
I know we've said it before but I've just been banned from asking questions of an online auction seller. Why? I guess they didn't like me questioning their auction wording But if their statements were true then they would have welcomed my interest as they would realise I could have considerable influence to help them gain sales. Sadly the opposite is true: Check these links for more info:
www.vibeplus.com/2010/05/31/unethical-trademe-seller-reacts-to-the-truth/
Dan Fivey has been newly appointed the task of U.K. sales of Vibro-Gym. This person is still on "The Blacklist" for dishonest and unethical behavior while in N.Z. and Australia. Nothing he say can be trusted at face value and he will exaggerate his expertise in a number of areas.
I will be detailing more of his past behavior in the next few days.
Mike Hair
Posted On:2010-05-24 16:43:29
When will the rest be put up. Thanx
Di Heap
Posted On:2010-05-24 14:49:46
A new video – “The Truth about Vibration Training”; the composition of the platform and how to create a true eccentric contraction.
The abstract of the Vissers et al. study on obesity Di mentioned is up at www.nlm.nih.gov. Click on PubMed and type in vibration training as search words. It is interesting the WBV group lost more visceral fat than the other exercise group of obese subjects.
Effect of Long Term Whole Body Vibration Training on Visceral Adipose Tissue by Vissers et al.
John Weatherly
Di Heap
Posted On:2010-05-15 15:21:18
Reading your reply, Lloyd, makes me wish I hadn’t deleted half of mine before posting it.
I also cannot believe anyone is still following PowerPlate and doing Boxing and other body twisting types of movements on the machines.To start with they promote their machine as 3D submitting the user to vibration force up/down, left/right, and front/back at the same time – the thought of being pulled in all those directions at once reminds me of the old death penalty of being dismembered by being pulled apart by horses.Obviously their machines (and the copy ones even more so) lack any real force or people would feel disorientated by the 3D.
Also after using vibration machines for over 3 years I can’t imagine why any program is mostly dynamic work. It seems to go against the whole premise of how vibration training works. I do understand advanced dynamic work for some athletes but if I allowed customers to move about on Vibra-Train (brand) machines instead of remaining in position they’d either 1. develop sore knees or hips or 2. get no benefit from the program due to insufficient muscle contraction.
I’ve read many comments on social network sites where people say how sore they are after their PowerPlate session. They think it’s good that the soreness is just like regular cardio and weights gym training and they develop some fitness as a result.
Vibra-Train studio customers don’t get aches or soreness, just some fatigue if they’ve worked hard. And they just get amazing strength, toning, muscle growth, strong bones – there’s no comparison really.
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-05-15 13:27:50
I do not understand why ANYBODY takes Power Plate seriously. I would say about 90% of what they do is inherently unsafe and more about "image and marketing" than "science and safety".
Eg... Boxing on the machines ???
What gets me is the other companies that dutifully followed in fear of losing a sale. Fit-Vibe , Vibro-Gym etc.... all the companies that should have stuck to the original programs and spoken out against Power Plates reckless and unethical behavior. Still following them after they found out Power Plates "Medical Advisory Board" was fake.
Cowards the lot of them.
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-05-15 12:54:46
That story came out of Italy and France last year, and ended up just being some uneducated Doctor referring to ISO 2631 occupational safety and health guidelines in a speech. Power Plate themselves caused a problem by releasing a statement saying " all other machines but ours can make your eyeballs explode "( no I am not joking ) Just a few of the things we have had to fight in the past.
If you do any digging you will find no such ban has been placed in any country worldwide. In N.Z. more and more Doctors are directly referring people to us, because it is deemed safer than safe.
As for the blood pressure issue, all exercise temporarily increases blood pressure. Vibration Training by its short nature ( following proper safety program ) is actually excellent for anybody worrying about a sensitivity to BP.
Di Heap
Posted On:2010-05-15 12:50:40
Hi Demon
When you ask questions on this forum please look back for answers and for questions asked to you. About your experiences on PowerPlate Lloyd asked (see bottom of this page): Could you clarify "It is true that I exercised a bit more on PP than I do on DKN but still…"Did they make you do dynamic work or just more poses ?
About the reports of health problems with PowerPlate machines – this was marketing by Clinton Rubin to promote the Juvent machine.
Eye and Kidney problems can be associated with uncontrolled heavy vibration at high G-forces such as with industrial equipment and long distance truck driving. The vibration of the machines we use is defined as Controlled Whole Body Vibration – force, time, fq, etc all controlled and used for good.
Please answer the question above – how long are you on the machine and what positions are you doing?
Demon
Posted On:2010-05-15 10:06:51
Hi,
I found an article about PowerPlate today on czech website; it was typical PR but in the discussion below somebody wrote that PP (and similar machines) were already banned in some countries because they were found to cause serious problems with eyes and kidneys? Is this true?
WBV training is increasing blood pressure, even if this is only temporary, can this has the similar effect as 'normal' high blood pressure on body over long time? That means destruction of eyes and kidneys?
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-05-14 12:19:07
No, Fq and Amplitude only play a small part on Lineal machines . Much smaller than most companies will tell you. Once the importance of the pressure within the eccentric contraction was discovered to be the key to changing body composition, everything changed direction. But yes at one stage prior to 2004 Fq and Amplitude was the focus.
