Mike M

Just a wee bit of advice...When doing the squat make sure your centre of balance is over top of yourself, knees to the front of your toes, not past them. You should not lean back on the machine ie..water ski position.

Check out the link below.

http://www.youtube.com/user/VibraTrain#p/u/19/6fWoFeiPkcY

Regards

Mike

Mike M and Di Heap,

Thank you for your comments re pivitol vs lineal.  Di, you ae right about all the marketing business....totally confusing and tends to make you think lineal is not good.  We would not even consider the Crazyfit, but we were serously considering the Nitrofit.  I think we will be going with one of the Waves...and stick with the safety program.  I definiley dont need a light machine that will turn over when my husband uses it.  He is already unstable on his feet and his weight is around 188 and his height is 6"0 tall...I on the other hand am short at 63 inches and 125 pounds  so no issue with machine turn over for me.  it seems that the Wave will be more stable for him.  I would not have thought of this being an  issue with a light machine if you had not mentioned that Mike.  We are excited about the therapy benefits for him and I for the training benefits.  So, we will just have to decide between a 7 week wait or hitting our bank account for the extra grand. 

Oh...I had previously tried using the locator for a Wave machine in our area...but it didnt provide me with anyone near us....so we will have to take a leap of faith on this one.  This forum has helped a lot so I think the Wave will be a good pick for us.

Thanks again for all your help.  We will let you know how it all works out when we get our machine.

Mike M

You’ve summed it up really well. Just to add a few points                            

1.       Your weight is affecting the performance of the Crazyfit (not that it’s working to specs anyway).  It is, as you say, useful for therapy – gentle circulation increase so can relieve stress and things like leg aches. It’s even enough to positively affect bone density if used regularly.

2.       For upper body positions a mat is essential and low speed – I do like that type of machine for the shoulder massage I get when if I do a kneeling push-up.  Overall I can’t recommend that brand or all the others that look alike (just different labelling). The bigger, more solid machines of that type are better for minor fitness gains but they make me feel very “seasick”.  There’s also the problem of durability – how long will the machine last and will the seller honor the warranty?

There are other pivotal machines that are better as a start for people needing therapy and a little fitness gains. For you, of course, it’s there to use until you get your Wave.

3.       Standing upright on a pivotal machine at low frequency is totally okay for people who just want therapy benefits. (I prefer soft knees but locked is okay).

4.       NEVER stand lock-legged on a lineal machine. It causes the vibrations to be felt into the neck/head area and you will get a headache or just find it a very unpleasant feeling.
Note: this is the comparison that is used by marketers to get you to buy their brand of Pivotal machine by saying that Lineal is dangerous.  They get you to stand upright on both types of machines and of you will then prefer pivotal BUT that’s gross misuse of the lineal machine. BOTH types have uses and benefits. It can come down to individual choice although Lineal is still the preferred machine for serious training.

5.       People can start with therapy and progress to training on both lineal and pivotal. The biggest limitation is the machine quality (as you’ve found out by your tests). I have two ladies in the studio here now.  Both started doing only basic squats due to health conditions. Now they do the full ITVRB Safety Program . Not everyone will be able to do that, some start sitting in a chair with feet on the machine and progress to squats. The main thing is not to be limited by the machine you choose or be prepared to replace later.

Hi Patty

Well I can't say I can recommend the Crazy Fit, it is kind of, well, to be kind, a short term solution at best. And it probably does not go faster than 12 Hz or so. In fact I should maybe consider rigging up something, I am an electronic tech by training, something like an actuator connected to a frequency counter would tell me the actual frequency, perhaps. But it is not that fast, but I have noticed my muscles seem to prefer a low setting like 7 (to relax), but the machine goes up to 20 (NOT Hz). At 1 it is probably less than 1 Hz, maybe 0.5 or so.

Comparing the two machines I have used, a Crazy Fit and a Wave Pro Elite, is like comparing a Yugo to a Bentley. There is no comparison. I find trying to use the Crazy Fit to do upper body work painful. The platform has these ridges in the plastic that hurt the fingers and it is quite jarring. And those bars that go around the machine get in the way a lot. You don't want to stand on a lineal with straight legs, but it's not bad at all on a pivotal, but there's no benefit to doing it, it just wastes time.

In contrast, the Pro Elite is smoother and not as jarring and the chiro had this 1/2" or so rubber pad lying there you can use to cushion the jarring somewhat. And I cannot do a full squat on the Crazy Fit as I weigh 230 and the machine only weighs maybe 60 lbs at most, it tips over if I try to lean that far back. Last time I tried to prevent that by propping my back against a wall, but that kind of ruins the effect a bit.

Overall I would have to say the cheap pivotals offer very limited training benefit, but the therapy benefit is considerable, it just makes my legs feel a lot better to kind of do a partial squat at about 7. I have tried to do a full squat but the tipping thing kind of makes it awkward; maybe I'll have that figured out by the time the Contour Plus gets here. My friend is considering mounting it on a sheet of plywood to widen the base and prevent tipping (my idea).

Maybe you can find a chiro local to you who has a Wave. I think I was able to find one by going on their site, seems there was a listing I was able to find that listed 3 locations here in NC who had them, one here, one in Raleigh and one some other place. Here, I found it:

http://www.wavexercise.com/locator.php

Maybe if there's not one in your town, maybe there's one in driving distance?

Mike M

I was wondering if you could describe the diffence in the feel of being on the Wave lineal versus the Crazy Fit oscilating plate.  Up until being on this discussion forum, I had only been looking at the pivitol type...and have never experience the lineal.  We are still hesitating over buying something we have never seen or tried.  If we do go with the Contour, we will probably go with the Reflex, simply because of my husbands disease.

Thanks for your help and previous experience you posted.

Well, thanks everyone who weighed in, I am ordering a Contour Plus, yes waiting 2 months will be painful, but it's the one I wanted all along, soon as I saw it. I do see where the DKN XG10 is on sale for $3500, and it may be the closest thing to the Contour Plus, but the price is about the same and I just think the Wave is better for some reason, I can't really explain it, I saw where someone didn't like the feel of the DKN and I rather liked the feel of the Wave Pro Elite. Guess I'll use my friend's Crazy Fit for a couple months, if it lasts that long, then I'll owe him a few months on the Wave...
I think I had a pump in my leg muscles (the calves) HOURS after I had that workout...

 

GT

Just to correct the link Lloyd added -

http://www.vibration-training-advice.com/weight-loss-resistance-training-vibration-training-for-woman

I notice new customers get heavier in weight yet change shape and look better after about 3 weeks (10 sessions), its after that that they show real fat loss. It's already happening for many – they slim a bit in waist/hip area but because they are building high quality muscle (as you've noticed) their weight goes up – try explaining that to females. - the link above does

Thanks Lloyd

I will do.  I just wish I can lose some of my beer belly.  i was doing my workout plus interval trainning but stopped intervals as I fear I may be overtainning.

thanks for the feedback

GT

I have been working out on my machine for a few weeks now.  I can definitely see some muscle buisling in my shoulders and arms and chest but I am not losing any fat and I think I am either over training or not eating enough or both.  I typically do 3 sets of each as follows

squats 60 sec 40hrz

lunge 40 at 40

back 40 at 40

chest usually 6 sets 40 at 4 with 2 different exercises

bicepts 60 sec at 40 with resistance

tricept 40 at 40

abs 40 at 40

I do this every other day with weekend off

Can you help

Ok, here's a quick question for anyone. Choose one of the following, and tell me why you pick that machine:

Wave Contour for $1550
Nitrofit Deluxe for $2250
Hypervibe Performance for $2600
Wave Contour Plus for $3600 but you must wait 2 months for delivery
Wave Air Reflex for $4500

Now I'll sit back and let anyone who cares to help me decide. Not to be anti-China or anything; I'm looking for bang for a buck. Wanted for both training and physio and therapeutic purposes.

Well, the chiro set the machine and walked away. Never saw him again. So I did the whole thing completely unsupervised. I could have stood on my head, he wouldn't have noticed.

About me, I guess I should tell a bit about why I want this. I am a guy, 54, 6 foot 4 about 225 lbs who is a "weekend warrior" type (play hoops twice a week) who has some health issues that are not that unusual when you get to my age. To wit, I could stand to lose 10-20 lbs of belly fat because it's adding to my two main problems - I have a runner's knee (this is where the patella does not track properly over the distal end of the femur and instead rubs bone on bone, pretty painful), and also I just got diagnosed as having severe sleep apnea. That problem results in insomnia, which is supposed to be helped by using these machines (relaxation) and excess weight also contributes to sleep apnea. Oh, and I am hypothyroid.

I should mention that I have a local friend who is the reason why I got interested in this - he has got one of those "Crazy Fit" cheapo machines recently and is letting me try it out. He got it just as a lark because it was only like $200 and, well, it started making funny noises the first week and we don't think it's going to last very long. But I have been using it a bit while it still works. And I am getting the idea it might be helping the runner's knee some. I saw a PT for several months with that, and he tried to get my vastus medialis muscle stronger during that time; I think maybe the machine has done more for that than he did. But a better machine might fix it (nothing else has).

So this was a chance to try out a top line machine (the Pro Elite) but I am thinking maybe the chiro kind of short circuited my workout by making the machine do some routine where it cycles frequencies up and down from 30-45 Hz and back again. Because 30 Hz felt like a break to me, intensity wise. I would not have set it like that if it were my machine. Yes I TRIED to do 60 second poses but I don't think I can hold a full plank yet for 60 seconds at 45 Hz, I have not done much upper body on the Crazy Fit, I've been concentrating on the knee instead. And I didn't find upper body poses real fun on a pivotal anyway, I think I need to work into that gradually. I'm built more like a runner, not a huge amount of upper body strength just yet. I need to work on that, but the knee is my priority right now. And I have to get a CPAP machine for the sleep apnea. Hard to do fitness work when you can't sleep right...

As regards machines, I have offers from Wave to get the Air Reflex for $4500, the Contour Plus for $3600 (7+ weeks backordered), or the Contour for $1550! And I read the specs and it just doesn't seem like there's $3000 difference between the 3 machines. Maybe there is, wish I could see them up close! I did, finally, find 4 youtube videos from Wave but they don't show the two machines that are available, running, instead it's just a lot of talking.

Hi Mike M

Lloyd will reply to you but I just want to clarify a few points.  You say you did 60 second poses – that was full 60 second, yes?  - not 15 sec.  pose and 15 sec. rest, which I see in the specs documentation. 

When I get athletic guys in the studio here some hardly handle the first 60 seconds; others seem unfazed by the whole thing until about 4-5 minutes in (that’s 5x 60second static poses- have you looked at the Safety Program or Vibra-Train on YouTube) then they show fatigue, complain or have to take rests between positions and by the end (which is only 6-8 poses to start) they are really failing with fatigue (different machines here of course).  Only rarely do I get anyone who says, “that wasn’t too bad” and if that happens we have “ways” (insert *wicked grin* here) to make sure they get a full workout – higher level machines and/or extra “guy” poses like the “full body triceps dip”.  In fact it’s the strongest guys who do their trial and don’t come back as it’s just too hard for them (high muscle contracts strongly) – those who do become regular clients see amazing gains on top of their already high fitness. 

Seeing your review – which seems just moderate – I wish I could zap machines around the world – it will happen in the next few years and then the other companies will be forced to catch up.

The Pro Elite sounds like it will work for you if you use a solid program like the Vibra-Train one and ensure perfect position – that’s what gives real results. You can double up on time – 120 second poses when you are proficient but perfect position is way more important

Now – about the calorie burn –  Personal Trainers using Vibration Machines for 10 minutes say that the “perceived effort” and tiredness they feel is like being in the gym for an hour or more – so people attach that to advertising, adding it that it must therefore burn about 400-1000 calories.  what you are getting is an increase in metabolic rate over the next approx 36 hours. Then you do it all over again – and your metabolism stays charged.  Fairly rapidly (if done correctly) your muscle quality increases and to maintain that your body burns more calories – It’s resistance training!

You still need to have a Cardio component to your exercise program for heart health. That can be full on or as simple as short walks, exercycle or swimming for people less able.

Mike M

Let me be the first to say that the Wave or any machine for that matter will not build cardio. I have trained in MMA for quite some time and had great cardio. I have been using only the wave and some TRX to test this out for 2 months. I must say that as far as my body and the way I look I am very pleased. Now, I went to train cardio...Cave man training... and I could tell that my cardio took a dip. One thing to be certain of is just because you see people with abs and a great build does not mean that they have great cardio. Anyone who says you will burn a ton of calories on the Wave...Using as example... either is lying or not very educated in the fitness field.

By the way, you would be better off paying the money for the Air Reflex. It is the same as the Elite but with a 4 inch smaller base and a dialed down screen. You will not be sorry. The contour however I think you would regret over time. That is just my opinion.

Wow. Well I have to say that the Wave Pro Elite (which the chiro has TWO of) is a very impressive machine. That said I am not sure it is all that. Here's why.

My chiro (who I know from before, and I must say, he is IMO a bit of a dodgy character, as are some chiros, but for all that, I suppose he's ok) set the machine to give me 15 minutes and the machine was set to high intensity oscillating up and down ranging from a low of 30 Hz to a high of 45 Hz. Mostly I did the partial squat pose as I think my upper body is a bit weak to be doing 60 second poses on this machine at first try. He told me it would burn 400-600 calories in the 15 minutes. I don't think so; it sure didn't feel like it. I never broke a sweat.

The first pose I held was the partial squat and I didn't have too hard a time holding it for more than 60 seconds. I do want to say that as it was oscillating up and down it was not as hard as, say, it would have been if it were instead set to 45 Hz and left there. 30 Hz felt much easier to me than 45. But 45 was not that bad. I also did a partial pushup and a plank and I stood on my toes to work my calf muscles. I also did some partial one legged squats. On all poses I was trying to rock about a bit to find the perfect, most intense angle to hit the muscle being worked harder. Figuring out what that angle is will be a work in progress, I imagine.

In a nutshell, I'd like one, but I'm still not certain I want one $4500 worth. The Pro Elite is a very elegant and handsome machine; not much to find wrong with it, with a very large platform.

The 6/12G rating (not KN! $()*%^!) is for the commercial Waves ONLY, I was told, as they are the only ones tested as yet; those are the Pro Elite and the Air Reflex. I have to wonder how much weaker could one expect the Contour and Contour Plus to be than that? These are all heavier than average machines after all (if that matters); the lightest one is 175 lbs.

Right now I am sort of leaning toward the Contour model. I know, I know, China etc. Plastic. But I see maybe 90% of the functionality of the Air Reflex at what, 40% the price? I don't know; still thinking about it...

Mike M

Please let me know what you think about the Wave after you get to experience it at the Chiro office.  We are still debating the investment due to the fact that we can not experience one before buying.

Looking forward to your review of the Wave.

Well folks, I have had a lucky break. I found out a local chiro has a Wave machine in his office right here in this town! Imagine that. So I am going over there in a couple hours to try it out. Once I've done that I should have a much better idea if this is something I want to invest in.

Hmm well I am a bit frustrated with the people at Wave giving me their stats in G's and not in KN force, since apparently G's are not that informative. I rather wish everyone would start talking in the same or comparable terminology so we can compare apples to apples. I am getting the idea from Lloyd that a heavier machine like his moving just a little (like 0.7mm) is better than a lighter machine moving a greater distance. Correct? So amplitude can actually be a bad thing, or it's at least better to be able to turn it down. Has anyone researched and found out what the relative effects are on, let's say, white muscle fibers of these different variables such as KN force, frequency, G forces, amplitude, and so on? If so what were the findings? I've seen some people claiming that 27 Hz speed as an optimum; what did they base that one on?

Sorry about that last message, it got pasted incorrectly.

I say, when they list a pivotal machine as running at 28 Hz, does that mean it pivots 28 times thus lifting each foot only 14 times? And lineal would be lifting both feet at one time, say 30 to 50 times? I recall seeing the accelerometer glued to one side of the platform, and then the article listed most of the pivotal frequencies as under 15 - was that just for the one side? So we should double the result they gave for the frequency on the pivotals? Or am I totally wrong?