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Please read through the articles that cover your questions, or topic of conversation before posting, as understanding the basics give the community a better chance of helping you.Please Note: Most of the frequently asked questions we have had over the years have their own article already.
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Roya |
Posted On:2010-12-06 21:06:55
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Hi all, i would like to let whoever out there that is suffering from Multiple Sclerosis know that i started in september this year to going to Vibratrain and with Lloyds supervision did 3 times a week starting with a pivotal vibration therapy machine and graduating to vibration training.
Even with 3 months doing vibration i am amazed at the results and i need to thank Lloyd for his encouraging attitude and always being available to answer any questions i have. I searched the internet to see if anyone with MS had shared their experience with vibration on a long term basis but could not find any.
I am indebted to lloyd for making his machines available to people with serious illness free of charge regardless of their financial circumstances. I started with the pivotal vibration therapy for 3 minutes just standing up, and gradually built it up to 10 minutes. After reaching that level moved to vibration training machine and hope to do the full exercise which is 10 x 1 minute poses in 2 to 3 months time. In terms of my illness nothing is more important than hope and seeing some results in such short time.
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Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train |
Posted On:2010-12-06 14:29:16
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From reading those guys argument against the safety program, I think they are simply not looking at all the angles........
From day one no-one in the health and fitness sector globally was rooting for Vibration Training to become popular. They were looking for any reason to call it unsafe or ineffective. Entire websites were dedicated to fight against Vibration Training and spread scare tactics and / or tell people we were charlatans , quite often telling people to not even try it.
These guys never got involved in the fight, but instead sat back and let me take our detractor on, in a public forum where it can still be seen. I have a history of fighting for our industry to be taken seriously.
Promoting the Safety Program was all part of protecting the industry, from its own random, experimental image.
Some self professed experts state that Vibration Training has been commercially available in Europe for 30 years. That is bull, they had some machines floating around.
Commercially adapted for the public....... ??? Why did they have no dedicated experts running premises. Why did they have zero restrictions surrounding their use. Why was it left up to me to do all the basic restrictions they follow now.
Why was N.Z. the very first country to have a Vibration Training studio, and why do we have the largest studios here than anywhere else in the world. Why did we have the first successful chain of studios. We have a mature industry here in N.Z, and its not seen as "fringe" or "weird".
When I first got involved everybody with the industry was disorganized, in-fighting was normal and they completely lacked direction. Everyone was contradicting each other and the stuff they were writing and releasing was utter rubbish. Not one of them could articulate to the consumer what we were trying to do. I had to rewrite all of Power Plates existing material because people feel asleep reading it.
They seem to be desperately trying to take it back to the bad old days.
Are they really saying I have done in 6 years what they couldn't do in 30 years But it apparently has nothing to do with how I did it ?.
Note: They are using my old Online Consumer Engagement experiment to try and preach to everybody I don't know what I am talking about. ( An experiment a PHD has been written on ).
Talk about a massive lack of respect guys.
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Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train |
Posted On:2010-12-06 11:42:26
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Dean....... Your question was put up, but you only really got a snarky comment back disregarding your expertise, and what you have seen. Telling you to go back to "your" blog. They also do not seem to want to take responsibility for comments that could be misconstrued by someone inexperienced ( eg running on the machines )
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Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train |
Posted On:2010-12-06 11:24:33
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The next big questions that are going to be asked are ..........
(1) Why do they all follow my "every second day" restriction, which is a central part of the Safety Program. I was the first person in the industry to come up with and then enforce that rule. All based on over-training principles. There are no studies showing damage using Vibration Training every day. So why trust my theories
(2) Why recommend 10 minutes ? Again it was me who did the perceived exertion tests, no research had been released at that time.
(3) ISO 2631 .... I was the first person in the industry to match up potential over-exposure from industrial settings to Vibration Training. Again no studies on our exact industry has been released to show I was correct.
When I entered the industry you apparently could use the machines, both Pivotal and Lineal for unlimited periods of time, as many times a day as you wanted. As Power Plates Product Manager I went about fixing that problem , before it became a problem. I mean it when I say there were zero restrictions or clear recommendations around their use.
I got no support from any other company to enforce these recommendations. In fact I have a few emails where the "top" guys questioned the need to have any at all. But now those recommendations are standard practice.
Are they really suggesting they have been following an uneducated idiots recommendations this whole time ?
Please note : Those restriction were not placed on Vibration Therapy.
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Dean |
Posted On:2010-12-06 10:08:36
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I tried to post a comment on vibrationtraining-net about a movement on plate topic, but so far, my comment is not visible. Perhaps I'm not good with computer, or I don't know how to use tools on that site. Either way, I'm posting my comment here.
As a physio, I can understand and appreciate your position for promoting movement, and acceptable risk in physiotherapy. Same as you, I do it on daily basis. But regarding movement on lineal vibration plate, we have to say, that there are a lot of things that we simply do not know about vibration stimuli in WBW, which make us unable to predict a level of risk that our patient is undergoing. So what don't we know?
1. Force of vibration. Despite of years of research, we still don't have valuable equation to measure force of vibration in human body. Force in Newtons, or G-forces proved to be little help, as well as amplitude and frequencies. All those information give us some idea of how hard is to exercise on some settings, but we still does not have complete picture. I remember my process of choosing a machines for our studios, when I step on two different machines with same settings and proclaimed force. They were so different, that I thought one of them was broken. But it wasn't. Is it Lloyd Shaw right when he say that some manufacturers proclaim false specs, or the elasticity of human body, as well as difference in anatomical structure prevent us to complete equation, I don't know. I'm no scientist, but practitioner. The practical problem is this: If I have two machines with same specs that produce different physiological response, than I have uncertainty in the beginning of my physiotherapy treatment, which can not lead to certainty of how it will end. Furthermore, I can not relay on scientific study that points up this frequency with that amplitude and this force produce that effect.
2.Effects of long term exposure to WBV. Is there some studies about that issue that I don't know? For example 100 people train 3 times a week in 2-3 years. If you know about such study, please let me know. Remember Vioxx drug? Or I should not go that far. Simple example is running. You can run 2 miles 3 times a week for a month, or six months, and be fine. What should we expect in 2 years, within 100 runners? Physios knows what happens. We see it on daily basis. I'm not saying that long term exposure to WBV is dangerous. Simply pointing to a fact that we do not know.
3.Natural movement superimposed with any load (vibration in this case). Yes, you will have more rapid increase in leg muscle power with jumps (especially with some weight put on shoulders of some athlete), than simply doing squats. But stress on tendons and cartilage is significantly higher. How hi is that stress within a vibration load, we don't know, and we can not compute because of the problem pointed out in measuring force of vibration, which lead us to a square one, and circle is closed.
4.Motor control during movement on vibration plate. Squat for example. Last time I put one professional football player on our plate (lineal), and ask him to slowly move in squat position from 30°-70° of knee flexion, I could see that his knees are not following predictable line of moving, but „sharing“ in inward direction. The problem is that what I see is not complete picture. It is combined movement of probably more rapid distractions in frequency that my eyes can not detect. So, I can only imagine what is happening inside of his joints, and this image was not so pleasant. Contrary to this, in static squat position he had good control over a position of his knees and hips.
For the time being, I choose to stick with static positions, even with professional athletes. They proved to be simple enough to teach, learn, control, and repeat. Movement in the way that you described can be achieved as supplemental to vibration stimuli in various of ways, which include cycling, walking, running, yoga, etc.
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Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train |
Posted On:2010-12-06 07:01:44
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Di Heap...
There is no way they are going to let you highlight their lack of understanding and experience in this field. They have their egos attached to how smart they think they are, all males do it.
Why do you think they are moderating the comments ?
We on the other hand didn't when we ran that site, and we don't now on this forum. Trust me they are operating out of pure fear.
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Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train |
Posted On:2010-12-06 06:38:33
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I really wonder if they have even thought their argument through.........new article here asking one simple question
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Di Heap |
Posted On:2010-12-06 03:21:26
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My comments are now up on vibrationtraining.net. I will have to wait until my return to N.Z. to see what my spam comment was that has been deleted. I think I said Lloyd Shaw had no ulterior motive or scare tactics in the design of machine or safety program. I do try to avoid use of brand names but it's not really possible and wild generalisations have to be challenged with specifics.
Why have I commented at all? - It's not that I want to take on these guys as they might baffle me with superior academic physio knowledge but I know the machines I work with and I would be seriously wrong if I didn't challenge the advice to move on all platforms and their obvious lack of knowledge.
Static, non movement positions are the best, safest and most effective way to train on high energy machines including BodyShaker and VibroGym and Vibra-Train.
Even when a person comes into the studio just to see what we do, If I get them to place one foot onto the machine I make sure their leg is straight in line with the platform, not on an angle - that's protection for their knee EVEN when it's just 10-20 seconds to feel the vibration. Over protective? Maybe in this 10 second test BUT I let it be the first lesson the person learns - that every movement around and on the machines is deliberate and careful.
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Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train |
Posted On:2010-12-05 19:02:45
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Dean...
There are ultimately only two sides to this fight .......
(1) Those who turn a blind eye, are fence sitters, or even promote the "anything goes" mantra.
(2) Those of us who know that is never the responsible path to take , and will openly work as a global community to clean up our industry and give it some much needed standards.
Why do I do it...?
For the same reasons I was relentless in advocating machine specs to be tested and quoted correctly ( Back when no-body in the industry wanted to know and these "experts" were nowhere to be found )
Likewise I will promote a simple standardized safety program to be taught with every machine sold. And as they have shown already they will jump on the bandwagon once the work is done and they can see some immediate financial advantage to them.
They are nothing but predictable at least.
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Dean |
Posted On:2010-12-05 13:02:43
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Lloyd
I work with patients in my private practice for over a 15 years now. I'm also a co owner of a medical fitness, so I deal with urban legends and „experts“ advices on daily basis within a field of physiotherapy and rehabilitation. And, believe me, It's hard to surprise me after all this years. But this stuff that surrounds vibration training is nothing less than amazing.
A year ago, in time that I wanted to open my first studio, I try to read and learn as much as I can about this field of training and therapy. When I came across your work, I really thought you are exaggerating about what is done on daily basis. I don't think that any more. Now I know.
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Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train |
Posted On:2010-12-05 12:37:45
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And don't you think its always funny how those stupid and dangerous recommendations, quickly turn into "urban legends" where no one trainer will actually take responsibility for it.
I keep a list for prosperity of the dumbest and most danerous quotes, and it will make good reading. As one day when this industry has matured and is successful, people will be interested in the fight we had to endure to make it all happen.
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Dean |
Posted On:2010-12-05 11:42:23
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One of our new customers came today with interesting story. She said that during her training on Powerplate she was running on the machine. Now, for you that didn't get it (as I didn't first time I've heard it, so I ask her to repeat), yes, she was not only allowed, but encouraged to make moves with her feet, and body, on the machine that vibrates, like she was running.
Now, we all now that vibration training is not aerobic one, and we are not pretend , nor want it to be so. For those who want cardio, there is plenty of opportunities indoor or outdoor. But to try to make vibration training act like a aerobic one in this way is not just lack of knowledge, or experience, It's just plain stupid.
No wander vibration training has such a bad reputation in some arias.
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Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train |
Posted On:2010-12-05 11:21:21
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Di Heap...
They are not putting your questions up because they are intimidated by you, and are not sure of their own knowledge. They cant even agree amongst themselves half the time. I just got an email from one telling me they wont answer in case they say the wrong thing, that then can be used against them in a discussion.
Have you ever seen me in 6 years delete or back away from a question ?
They are acting more like politicians every day. Making decisions based on fear. It will not work out well for them.
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Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train |
Posted On:2010-12-05 10:59:53
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Blaire....
It was not like I didn't want help. I had personal contact with all the top players in the market at the time. I was told the same thing by them all " it cant be done " " just use what we already have" ( we still hear that one today ) . Even though they freely admitted the current units had limitations in certain settings. I could not understand where the ZERO motivation to finish the job was coming from.
I soon found out, most of them were fakes. They were just reverse engineers ( copy others work ) not innovators.
I unfortunately couldn't just take an existing model and make it bigger or simply modify it. I had to sit down and start from scratch, but doing so was the best thing I ever did, as it forced me to come up with multiple solutions.
Eg.... I actually invented two ways to transfer vibration into a load bearing vibration handle bar. One the exact design opposite of the other. It forced me to think in a totally different way to traditional engineering.
Because of this process I finished 25 designs, 2 you have already see. I will drop another into the mix at the right time.
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Di Heap |
Posted On:2010-12-05 01:44:43
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I think the proof of using the various brands and types of vibration machines is going to be - in the results. It would be interesting to know what other training, if any, the owners, promoters of the various machines do and if they actually train on their machines and to see pictures. Its not that we are all perfect but results should show.
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MikeHair |
Posted On:2010-12-04 22:25:39
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Blaire
Why is it so hard for you to believe Lloyd designed and built his machines without any help...
I have tried every high force lineal machine on the market and nothing compares to a VibraTrain machine, that is why after 3 and a half years in business as Lloyds compitition we choose to become a part of them.
Trust me if you ever get the opportunity to meet Lloyd Shaw and spend some time with him it will become clear that he is in a league on his own.
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Blaire |
Posted On:2010-12-04 22:09:09
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Interesting read. How many people helped you design and build your machines Lloyd because its a bit tough to believe you did it all by yourself. You make it sound as though you single handedly made design breakthroughs that no one since can copy. How is that.
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Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train |
Posted On:2010-12-04 09:45:49
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A new article to help explain the resistance we are getting from some quarters ....
Quite simply it is like we are questioning their religion, and we know how people hate that.
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Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train |
Posted On:2010-12-03 15:40:02
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Can anyone point me in the direction of where these newfound experts have even used a High Energy Lineal unit.
As far as they have stated, the biggest unit they have used or studied is a VibroGym, which is at the very lowest end of High Energy ( and that is wound all the way up on 50 hz High ).
I clearly state I am not talking about the lighter Physio / Therapy machines they are using.
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Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train |
Posted On:2010-12-03 14:12:07
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Yes apparently all you have to do to be an expert is be able to read some research, someone else did, and then repeat it. Even if it was flawed. Why did I work so hard when it was that easy ? Silly, silly me.
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Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train |
Posted On:2010-12-02 14:57:41
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I think it is important to note that the true g-forces the body goes under is quite different than a glued on accelerometer.
For a start on a Pivotal unit, as one legs goes up, the other comes down. Halving the force automatically.
Secondly you are not glued to the machine, so are not dragged down but instead free fall. If fact the only way to replicate those tests in a real world experiment would be to attach your shoes to the actual plate. These real time variations combine to reduce the stress on the body and joints.
But you are correct, HyperVibe have not been advertising accurate specs, so are as guilty as those they accuse. If we are to treat this as a science all data must be accurate.
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Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train |
Posted On:2010-12-01 23:35:37
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Yes you are correct Dean, we went through the same process here. But up against Power Plate , VibroGym and others. All promoting moving. It was tough to turn some customers away in a recession I tell you.
The most glaring example proponents of movement so far have failed to explain, is the Vibra-Gym studios here in N.Z. that were following my program to the letter, with great commercial success. Until Dan Fivey a so called "expert" convinced them to change to dynamic. Every single studio was closed within 12 months. With the feedback of injuries far too common.
I do not understand how anybody with business sense, would not look at N.Z.s mature and still growing steadily Vibration Training industry. Then discount all the lessons learnt over here.
But that's academics for you. Head in the clouds or the sand.
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Dean |
Posted On:2010-12-01 22:26:56
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Lloyd
Yes, she followed safety program to the letter.
I have to say, that when we opened the first studio, after a month or so, some of our customers wanted new exercises, because they see it on internet, or done it on Powerplate, or they „feel“ that they need specific exercise for butt muscles (you all faced those people, I suppose). I was tempted to indulge them, back then, but choose to stick to safety program instead (thanks to your support, and information provided by community on this site). The result was to loose some of customers at the time, but gain many more in time to come.
Last example was tennis coach who came to my physio clinic for help with his knee problem, which he developed after only one session on Poverplate. Sufficient to say, he did jumping on the machine on his first training (?!?)
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Arron |
Posted On:2010-12-01 21:00:27
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I would not worry.I think the fact they need to use your old site to get their opinion out speaks volumes.Make sure people know that. Sleazy salespeople are all the same.No self respect.
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Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train |
Posted On:2010-12-01 16:19:09
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Not just my opinion.....
This is what Lisa, who runs GoFigure in N.Z. had to say about her experiencing different systems.......
" With this machine, the instructor also suggested you move on the machine ie squatting up and down while doing boxing motions with the cable, you can also do lunges, and normal push ups. All these movements on the machine added to the resistance but you only got the workout if you did the movements, rather than getting the burn by being in a static movement like the vibratrain."
The fact is moving on the machines can not only be risky, but they also give a very bad impression to personal trainers and fitness enthusiast. What is the point of difference if you are forced to do your traditional training, but just add a vibration platform.
Even Sal Marinello said that, "why pay a fortune for something that you can just do on the floor, for free." .......... I agree.
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Di Heap |
Posted On:2010-12-01 15:11:12
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The important issue as I see it is not to generalise!
There’s a huge difference between lineal and pivotal movement for a start. Then differing machine qualities, sizes and more.
You can’t expect to do exactly the same program on every type, anymore than you can expect to be able to run on any surface – grass, mud, stones, coals, water (oh hold on a minute, there was this one man 2000 years ago *laughs* )
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Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train |
Posted On:2010-12-01 14:55:20
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I would like to clarify, that I have always said that you can get away with moving on a light platform.
But once you cross a certain threshold in speed or power ( depending on if its Pivotal or Lineal unit ) Then a static program becomes the safest option. I do not agree with blanket statements made by people who have only had limited experience on only a few types of machines.
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Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train |
Posted On:2010-12-01 13:51:03
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Cynthia.....
The bigger unit gives you better results. Mainly because the platform is bigger and you can do more. But you will get results with the smaller unit. Just more limited.
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cynthia |
Posted On:2010-12-01 13:17:32
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Lloyd, thanks again for your support.
And this one is cheaper. So, I will have my machine soon...
Lloyd, it have the same benefits than an expensive one?
So, for my personal use i need the Nitrofit personal ??.
Thanks again. Best regards
Cynthia
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Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train |
Posted On:2010-12-01 12:51:24
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Brilliant Dean.....
And she was following the safety program ?
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