Hi All,

 I wanted to put a post in as a reader of over a year, and now as a future vibration machine owner. This is a very big step for me, and I wanted to let folks know what my experiences have been in the process, why I am making the decision I am, and hopefully will update here to let you know what the process of getting and using a machine is like. I should ship in about 3 weeks. I appreciate all the helpful advice I can get!

But first a bit of background. I am a mid 50’s guy in the US. The only machine near by to try has been the powerplate. This forum and the previous one have been extremely helpful in getting me educated to the point of making this large dollar investment. When the other site effectively shut down, I went googling for Lloyd Shaw, with whom I have corresponded a bit going back a couple of years. So I found this site, and again emailed him and asked about machines.

I have been looking for a larger machine, One which I will not “Peak Out” on in a few years time. My background is that I am a machine design engineer, who has had his own manufacturing company, so I am not a babe in the woods with respect to a few of the design and manufacturing issues. I also know a bit about design and manufacturing problems that can arise. For this reason, as well as others, I RARELY buy cheap machines. I have spent too much time fiddling with them to get them to stay working that it is just not worth it for me. As well, I have found that it is not like working to bring a classically engineered machine back into working order (like a well engineered classic automobile) but rather like reengineering and essentially rebuilding a piece of junk knowing it will never be “right” but might be “functional”. Anyway, perhaps that is enough to let you know what I value as a user, and what I am willing to pay for.

Based on Lloyd’s suggestions, I checked out the Body Shaker, the VibroGym, and the True Vibe. Early on I was very seriously looking into the Hypergravity, but I am extremely glad that I passed on that one! As you can see these are some of the heavier and more expensive units around. I liked the Body Shaker, and the price was good, the Vibrogym seemed to be the standard bearer. It’s been around quite a while, was the original machine that studies were done on, as I understand it, and the design and construction has stood the test of time. In looking into the True Vibe, and contacting them, I got a bit of the back story filled in.

In the end I decided on the True Vibe machine from Kevin Barkley-Webb. Kevin was the top salesman for VibroGym, understands the machines and their uses very well, and I am told that the True Vibe machines are made by the same company as the VibroGym machines: quality motors, good electronics, and a proved frame. I have had some experience with the small design engineering-manufacturing houses in this part of the Netherlands, and respect their work, a lot.  In talking with Kevin, he seemed to have a very good grasp of the machines and their uses, almost a personal trainer type. Of everybody I communicated with he seemed the most “into” the use of the machine, instead of just “into” selling the machine.

One thing that I really like about Lloyds machines are the handlebars. It makes so much sense as muscles need to be worked on in opposing pairs. Kevin is of the opinion that his machine with straps will give a good workout. We’ll see. Another thing that I am curious about is starting with a static set of poses, but then introducing movement as I get stronger. I know this board is against that but I want to learn more about controlled movement. I am taking a break, but I have been doing yoga flow, and want to build back up to be able to do it again.

So this post is long enough, but let me sum up: I bought a True Vibe, because I think it is a great machine at a good price, Kevin was a very knowledgeable salesman who obviously knows and uses his product, and of course, comes well regarded by Lloyd.

Let me belabor this last point. I have known a lot of people who create, or push breakthrough products or processes. No disrespect to Lloyd, who I respect a lot, but these people do not tend to be of the milk-toast variety. They tend to be outspoken, perhaps confrontational at times. In order to stand up for what you think is right, you need to first Stand Up. Many do not like that, in and of itself. That is why I harp on focusing on the product or the process, and not the personality. It’s the only way to move forward.

Gabriel,

You can email pdfs to notnospam@gmail.com.

 Having been away from the forum for a day or two - it's hard to catch up with what's gone on!  Re the Hypergravity 'bashing' issue, I don't remember anyone saying the Hypergravity machines were not good when they work.  They key being, when they work!  3/3 of my machines caused major problems.  Where I think bad feeling arose was when, having tried to fix them on numerous occasions, it became clear the machines were not fit for purpose.  Had the company dealt with that honestly and taken this as part of a learning curve (they were after all the biggest platforms on the market other than Lloyd's and were somewhat of an experiment) there would not have been bad feeling.  There was, unfortunately wriggling, evasion and deceit.  It is these things that made the company impossible to recommend.  It it not just the product that is part of a recommendation, it is the integrity and reliability of the company that forms an equal part of a recommendation and on this basis Hypergravity are not a viable choice. 

I think it is probably fair to say there was probably a personal sense of being let down on Lloyd's behalf.  Without doubt, when he believed in both the product and its integrity, Lloyd championed the company.  Having dealt with them I can say from personal experience that the before sale and after sale manner of Josh are very  very different!  When things went belly-up with me, Lloyd worked extremely hard as a go-between to try to salvage the situation; to help Josh keep his reputation and help keep me from  a white coat and padded cell as motor after motor burned out.  I believe it is a great pity that things turned out the way they did as the Hypergravities had so much potential.  Had the company dealt with their mistakes in a diffferent way I believe things would have been different.

You are perhaps fortunate Gabriel not to have to have dealt with them when it it is not fair weather.  These forums are about sharing personal experiences.  You present your positive view of the company, I present my less positive experiences.  People can then make up their own minds.  This is the beauty of a more informal forum.

First off, what you did in this situation was, in my opinion, the completely right call and I have never implied that you lack knowledge or passion in your pursuit of refining this industry and protecting the consumer.

As far as this situation is concerned however, the "evidence" that you are using is that when machinery is designed improperly, it can be harmful to any person or persons using it. Also, the "evidence" suggests that some companies looking to make money first, will compromise the safety of their customer. This is enoiugh legitimate evidence to support your claim that powerplate is unsafe and the problem should be corrected.

Having that been said, there is no evidence that the "3D" motion of the platform would have been harmful to the user.  Although shearing forces have been shown to be destructive to joints, so has vibration been shown to damage nerves and cause all sorts of physical injury. However, when vibration is controlled and limited in exposure, it seems not only safe, but beneficial to the body. The body undergoes shearing forces all day long, but we cannot know to what extent those forces are unsafe vs.potentially beneficial to the connective tissue system. There is technically some amount of horizontal shear with pivotal and this is the "scare tactic" preferred by lineal companies to make sales, but the research cannot support its danger to the body so this claim is false until proven otherwise.

Like I said, it would be nice if certain people had the ability to direct the traffic in VT sales unbiased and with 100 percent consumer interest in mind, but this is not the case and never will be as "perception" and individual experience drives these recommendations...something that can never be unbiased. Since this isnt the case, we have to use some sort of tangible outcomesor acceptable evidence to make a statment about what benefits can and cannot be obtainable with a specific platform.

Gabriel,

Well I might like to see the pdfs. As you may know, the Contour Plus was introduced in 2009. I'm not sure what the timeline was for the other models. I do know the Contour is a plastic Chinese model; the rest Canadian. And I have seen videos of an older model which had a rectangular platform. Depending on when your study was done, that could be the one looked at. The only Wave I have been able to actually test was a Pro Elite.

I kind of hope it's not too much like a Power Plate. I might settle for something at least as powerful as the better Power Plates and way more reliable.

On a completely different topic  (sorry to intrude guys) –

Yesterday a couple, customers at the studio where I work, said I had recently banned told their daughter and told her not to return.   

I can’t remember specifically banning someone, I probably told her not return if she was going to continue to waste her time and mine (as instructor responsible her safe training and results) by messing about and not doing the program properly. Or maybe, by refusing to eat before coming in for a session – which is non-negotiable.    http://www.vibration-training-advice.com/why-eat-before-a-vibration-training-workout

In all the discussions of machine specs and qualities we can sometimes forget these basics – to get a good workout that gives good results (on any machine) the program must be followed exactly.  The IVTRB Safety program (poster and instructions) is used worldwide by many studios using lineal machines and a variation of this program will very soon be released for use with pivotal platforms.

Yesterday I also corrected two customers (strongly worded correction) who had decided they could rearrange the program order because “they preferred it that way”.  And I saw Lloyd explain to one why she couldn’t do a position side resting on her elbow and forearm (as some do on machines of less force. It would have been unsafe on the machine she was using and unwise on most brands of machines so it’s not a pose in the IVTRB Safety Program).  

The Vibra-Train brand take all of the parts of Vibration Training very seriously – I’m really proud to be part of this.

Check out the link below... This is the very reason why people struggle to get their head aroung this industry. Bloody marketeers bashing one system because they sell the other.

http://www.hypergravity.net/Oscillatingvslinear.html

Now check out what some one who cares about this industry says below

http://www.vibration-training-advice.com/no-such-thing-as-a-bad-machine

Mike M

I was meaning Josh who owns hypergravity..just go to his site and click on the photo section he is the wee fat guy, lol

http://www.hypergravity.net/Pictures.html

Mike, where do you go to see a photo of this Gabriel with his shirt off? Got a link?

Might be interested to see what the famous Galileo along with Hypergravity is able to accomplish, at that. Like a high budget film versus low-budget (me).

What??? Would I recommend it on vt.net...NO. Not until Josh or someone else produces evidence that it does what it claims to do.

How long has he been producing platforms?? 

I will show you evidence, just have a look at his body does his machine do what he claims…either the answer is no or he doesn’t believe in his product enough to use it!!!

Now take a look at Lloyd with his shirt off, how does he compare??? You can’t ask for a better testimony than that, and it didn’t need an academic to write about it, just took a photo.

There is a big difference between speculating on HOW something works in the body to produce an evidence supported result and just making unsupported claims that a given manufacturers platform can produce that result. The evidence that is referenced in my article on purchasing a platform pertains to the latter. I have no problems and will always support the creative thought process that is needed to answer the HOW question. If no on did this, there would be no way to determine how to design a study and therefore no evolution.

What I believe, and I give credit to others including you for convincing me of this, is that a manufacturer of vibration technology should be required to validate through evidence any claims they make. This is the only way to move forward.

The HG is a phenomenal platform and has positively influenced hundreds of individuals lives in my clinic. One individual being me as it is a key to my training program....along with the Galileo. Would I withold that from my patients and clients...of course not. Would I recommend it on vt.net...NO. Not until Josh or someone else produces evidence that it does what it claims to do. I have told him this and the ball is in his court so to speak. Oncehe has done this, you can be sure it will be at the top of the lineal recommendations.  

Gabriel

you say the only evidence at the time was provided by Lloyd Shaw with regards to hypergravity...

Well i helped 4 different people around the world purchase 7 hypergravity machines and the whole lot had had brake down problems, these people bought these machines in good faith to set up a studio and make a living from them. Even Lloyd tried to help Josh and steer him in the right direction but he refused to listern.

On another note i find it insulting that you would question the only person that i have seen with the passion to take this industry to the world and make a difference in peoples lives. We are very lucky that Lloyd has applied restraint when and where needed. He has a vision that will only play when society is ready to accept it.

Hell he has designed and built the best machine this industry has ever seen and has a whole lot more up his sleeve. If he really had an agenda he would have built and released a home machine years ago and dominated the world.

Not that Lloyd needs me to defend him but when it comes to this industry he has nothing but every one elses interest at heart...Just wait and see

Lloyd,

Thanks for the link to my store where people can purchase the products that they use in my studio and PT practice. Was this supposed to prove something. If you are trying to imply I am a pivotal salesman, your timing is impeccable as I am sure the new article on vt.net will set the record straight for everyone.

I have great respect for Phillipa. The story in this article is much different from the story I was getting in emails from Lloyd and Josh at HG. Either way, didnt think a boycott was warranted at the time. 

Di Heap,

Will you stop with all this "academic" nonsense. I dont sit around in a labcoat all day long. I work each day with both patients and clients...from high level athletes to people with neurological diseases. I am using vibration all day long and am also training other health and fitness professionals including fellow physios, personal trainers and yoga instructors. Can I help someone with a home machine. I should hope so. As far as vt.net, why would anyone trying to assist in moving the industry forward not use that site as a platform. It would be silly to build a new site.

Do you think that an evidence based site excludes the average person. If anything, it filters things out so they know what they are buying. We have no problem with platform inquiries. The site will unfold as it is meant to.

I think I have had enough for now. Thanks for your time.

Mike M,

My first platform was a Hypergravity, which still works perfectly after many years. I did refuse to participate in the Hypergravity bashing on vt.net at the time, but not because of anything pertaining to this conspiracy theory stated below. Just didnt feel my role was to engage in Lloyds war. Of course, it would have been stupid to fight against the person that supports my 6K platform wouldnt it have, but that has nothing to do with anything other than common sense. I dont support any manufacturer that deceives their customers, but the only evidence I had at the time of this was provided by Lloyd. Given all the posts today about me, it is officially confirmed that I made the right decision since the truth of his stories are clearly questionable.

As far as the removed content, although I have no idea how much was removed or what it pertained to, having been a part of the forum, I cannot recall anything too significant to help you with your purchase. On vt.net we support Wave as it has been researched and provides specific benefits. Having that been said, not sure whether the model you are referring to was the one in the studies. If you provide me with an email, I can send you the PDFs of the studies. I have been on the Wave though and it feels like a Powerplate so I would expect a similar feel and similar results.

I agree with you about the posts and am sure the site is not, going forward, censoring content that isnt academic. That would certainly be a very dry and boring forum. We do however hope to encourage more evidence based dialog. Laslty, I openly acknowledge that the name Ted, who was the old site manager, is on articles written by Lloyd. It just isnt within my capabilities to change that.

Gabriel,

 I was rather wishing that the messages on vt.net, which I have been assured were quite many, especially beginning in about 2009, were interesting. You know, I am sure it is commendable to have some academic discussion on there, and I am quite sure it can be enlightening at times, but to exclude all other message postings because you don't like what they say seems short sighted at best. If you remove all the posts you don't like, and only leave dry academic articles, then I would venture that all the fun and most of the interest will be sucked right out of your forum, and nobody will come there, or if they do, they won't be back. It's too boring, if nothing else.

As for myself, I am disappointed that messages that relate to my recently-purchased and soon-to-be-acquired quivering exercise machine, the Wave Contour Plus, were removed along with everything else, and any new purchasers thereof, beginning in 2009, who might have commented on their purchase and how it might kindle the body in a accumulation of unique and profitable ways, had their posts also removed. So I am less enlightened on the subject of my aptness appurtenance equipment. Have a good one.

Again, I do not want to get in the middle of the fight between Gabriel and Lloyd.  I do want to state a fact.  As someone who commented on vt.net, I noticed after the change, blow-up, or whatever you want to call it that the name Lloyd  as author of a large number of articles had been removed and replaced by Ted.  This is fact.  Everybody that participated on vt.net at the time who is honest will back this up.  Thus, Ted or whoever was behind it, falsely took credit for being the author of material that Lloyd wrote.

John Weatherly