Please read through the articles that cover your questions, or topic of conversation before posting, as understanding the basics give the community a better chance of helping you.Please Note: Most of the frequently asked questions we have had over the years have their own article already.
Or get her to ring Fair Go... consumer watchdog program.
Let them call and record the conversation.
MikeHair
Posted On:2010-09-09 21:06:24
One of my customers phoned the 0800 number to enquire about the pivotal machines they sell on T.V, the pushy sales man told her they are worth $9,000 and they sell them for $1500 but she was lucky that she called today as they have 3 demo models that had very little use and he could let her have one for $1300! He told her they were the best on the market as they have 99 speeds. When she asked where they were made he told her the USA, when in fact she knew they were made in china. She asked for some info to be sent on them and he said they have none and avoided any more questions when it came to info on paper.
Just another example of gutless sales people telling lies and ripping off the public at any cost.
I have asked her to call them back and try to get them to put on paper where they are made as this is a serious and deliberate lie and i will be complaining to the commerce commision.
The sooner the public wake up to these con artists they sooner the vibration training industry can move on.
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-09-09 14:40:24
Thanks John,
as I said nothing good can come from pretending to be an expert at something they clearly aren't. They missed logical processes before, and they have again. It has nothing to do with "research" It was logical to tests all machines prior to starting any research, it was not rocket science. Any person with 3 brain cells to rub together would have taken it as standard practice.
This whole thing just furthers my resolve at how self important, unethical and lazy most academics are.
But at least my recommendations are on record, so it is not just my word against theirs.
Di Heap
Posted On:2010-09-09 10:15:21
It’s been a busy morning here at Vibra-Train, Auckland City. I’ve paid special attention to client’s muscle profile taking note of which level (or force) of machine they use.
All customers get muscle build. The girls love the way the Level 2 machines firm up their arms and trim their waistlines and you can see this, small firm arm muscles look good as well as there’s the practical increase in strength and skeletal support.
There’s a young guy in studio now. He’s a uni student and he’s tall and genetically/racially big.He first came in around 6 months ago and he wasn’t easy to train as he struggled with maintaining positions.He looked “blobby” and I doubted he’d continue coming – I was so wrong!
Now he looks amazing! He has such definition in muscle in legs, arms, abs, shoulders (the forgotten area in a lot of gym based training) and he holds himself well, not stooping as before.He’s graduated through the machine levels –from level 2 to level 5 (the athletes machine) and now he mixes it up and uses a different machine level each time.
I’ve had at least two customers recently with queries that they’re building quad muscles that are too big!These are triathletes or marathon runners; they don’t want “big” so they avoid the level 5 machine but in race events they find the extra muscle gives them endurance and a race time that’s more evenly spread over the kms and they stop worrying.
Tell me another Vibration Machine brand where guys complain that they are getting too muscular or getting too much result.
John
Posted On:2010-09-09 05:30:12
Lloyd is correct. He has been saying what is in the ISMNJ Guidelines review paper ever since I have been corresponding with him.
John Weatherly
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-09-08 20:45:29
Read this old article of mine if anyone has any doubt where they got their ideas from. But they give no acknowledgement what-so-ever.
" In the mean time , my advice to you is write a research paper on how to write a research paper , one that points out the pitfalls of trusting marketers. And spell it out . "
Well one day when this site is the primary source of info for the consumer. I will be writing about them. Then we will see if we get some respect.
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-09-08 19:20:37
I am personally getting very tired of these self professed "experts" stuffing up and never saying sorry.
Its always someone else's fault. When the reality is they just do not have the foresight to see issues ahead of time and act accordingly. We had to abandon vt.net for the same reason. Meddling academics bumbling around looking for recognition without doing any of the work. And now we have this bunch of clowns basically plagiarizing our work and trying to take the credit.
And people wonder why I have no respect for them.
Di Heap
Posted On:2010-09-08 14:38:30
I do not understand how researchers would not firstly check the Vibration Machine was working to the specs the supplier or manufacturer stated. Also stating the type of machine, its composition plus the magnitude of force produced etc. I expect the researcher to know what things need to be known and how they could affect the study results.
Only then other factors - like the abilities, disability or health issues of the test subjects, along with things like duration, the exercise positions etc, come into it and real results can be measured.
Lloyd Shaw has been saying this for 6 years but the academics (so called “experts “in WBV) kept neglecting machine testing – and now those same “experts” are recommending it as if it’s something new they’ve figured out . What’s worse they’re still leaving out the important factors and going for the minor or extra ones.
In my opinion they are totally negligent and by their lack of earlier action companies like PowerPlate, VibraFlex and others have been able to promote the “any machine composition is okay” idea. Now the market is flooded with low quality crap that we have to speak out against and get rid of. These “experts” need to be held to account.
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-09-08 12:35:41
Well with a bit of digging I found something interesting. The study was sponsored by Galileo / Vibra-Flex.
" The International Society of Musculoskeletal and Neuronal Interactions (ISMNI) invited experts in the field to provide suggestions on how the intervention should be described in such reports. The recommendations are presented here. "
So a retail Pivotal company is now put itself in charge of making recommendations for all research, including Lineal. I strongly feel this is something that should have been included in the report. and it also explains why the list is incomplete as they only wanted to mention things relevant to their Pivotal machines.
I am getting Dr Marco Cardinale added to my list of unethical industry players.
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-09-07 18:23:07
Yes I wonder how him and his "expert" mates would explain the level 5 unit. That runs at 0.7mm 43hz.
In time we will prove that these clowns should never be giving recommendations to anyone about our industry. Their arrogance is astounding considering how obviously limited their knowledge of machine design and function is. I mean how could you "not think" to test a machine in the first place. 10 years of research and they just thought of it now ?
Unethical marketers have ridden that screw up for all it was worth, and these guys act like it was a simple mistake that can be remedied by one recommendation list.
Its like the blind leading the blind. They were and are part of the problem, and I will work hard to expose them as such.
MikeHair
Posted On:2010-09-07 17:13:13
I have always said time has a way of sorting out the bullshit.
I have tried many machines in my last 5 years of vibration training and if mass was not an important part of the equation, than i would not have busted my balls to get a machine that weighs close to 250kg and excerts 3 ton of pressure.
It has a lot to do with muscle growth as working out on the vibrogym for over 2 years kept me toned but as soon as i started using a vibratrain my muscles growth started again. I have a lot of young guys that have grown a lot of muscle on the bigger heavier machine.
I guess Dr cardinale needs to try a real machine before any of his studies can be taken seriously.
If the whole point to the recommendations were to enable researchers to match what the machine actually does, to results, so they can then be repeated by another researcher. ( Instead of just relying on what the manufacturer says on the box, which is exactly what a whole bunch of these so called experts did in the past ) . Then why not list ALL parameters. Leaving even one out gives unethical marketers room to move.
I would also like people to look up Dr Marco Cardinales work and point out any paper he has written where he names exactly what the machine is doing. As opposed to what the display reads. The ONLY person I have ever seen do this was David Bassett-Jones who clearly stated the manufactures claims ( Power Plates ) were not the same as recorded.
I invite Dr Marco Cardinale on to this forum to point out where he himself has followed his own recommendations, and listed variances in his research.
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-09-07 13:31:10
Well just been in Email contact with Dr Marco Cardinale. Where he proceeded to tell me the mass x acceleration / inertia equation of the machines makes no difference to anything. FQ and Amplitude / G-Forces are everything.
This from a self professed "expert" in the field.
My opinion is ..........
They are all fake experts or real idiots.
Because there is no way that anybody who has actually used a steel Vibro-Gym and then a plastic Power Plate alongside each other ( that on an accelerometer tests would measure basically the same ) would suggest they give similar results. And apparently my level 1-5 machines all do the same thing. Because they all run at 3mm/ 43hz.
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-09-06 11:14:58
For those of you who have followed our relationship with Dr. Marco Cardinale Head of Sports Science and Research of the British Olympic Association ( researcher who Power Plate claimed to be on their fake Scientific Advisory Board )
His exact words on the subject......
"A company has briefly listed my name on a list of scientific experts without my agreement and I made sure my name was deleted form the list.
I was recently made aware that some individuals/companies claim that I have some sort of involvement in the development of their products and/or I advise them or use their products. Again, I would like to state that I am not consulting companies that produce vibration training devices."
"Finally, I was also made aware that some individuals/companies claim that I have been deleted from the scientific advisory board of another company because I was still involved with the late Prof. Bosco's enterprise. This is another Lie"
As he is quoted in the media from time to time, we asked him to do something solid about it. But he declined saying "it wasn't his fight" He simply let then get away with it. Power Plate love people like this as it makes their lies so much easier to hide. But at least we know he cant be trusted to stand up for the consumer.
Anyway some of his latest work was to be part of a recommendation paper for researchers of Vibration Training ( WBV ) Search Google for the PDF version under ....
Reporting whole-body vibration intervention studies: Recommendations of the International Society of Musculoskeletal and Neuronal Interactions
" invited experts in the field were to provide suggestions on how the intervention should be described in such reports "
These "invited experts" basically spend their time repeating what we have been saying for 6 years. And even manage to miss some pretty important stuff. But I suppose at least its a start.
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-08-31 18:04:44
The theory of myogenesis ( growing new muscle cells ) from Vibration Training is slowly being taken seriously by the academic community.
They are still not getting the complete picture , inertia equations etc... and seemingly concentrating on Fq. Wondering why the higher Fq gets better results
I am happy to report this site is now sitting at #3 on Google in the U.K. for the search term "Vibration Training"
We are ahead of all the marketing and retail companies that throw money into being at the top.
Proof that information is something that people still want. Which is bad news for any dishonest salespeople out there. And good news for those companies striving to be better.
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-08-30 15:18:09
I understand everybody is learning all the time, so we cant expect anybody to know everything.
But when a company like Power Plate claims to be a "World Leader" you would think they would at least know the basics . Amateurs and con-artists is a more accurate label.
MikeHair
Posted On:2010-08-30 09:13:48
Great article Lloyd, its good that people see from an engineers point of view that there is so much more to building a quality vibration training machine than just attaching a couple of motors to a platform. Powerplate certaintly have a lot to answer for when it comes to quality.
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-08-29 10:27:25
Mini Article...
Why don't my isolators work.....?
Was contacted this week by someone who fixed Power Plates for a living and they had managed to get a box of isolators from Vibro-Gym. But when he stuck them on the platform wouldn't vibrate. Even though it was clearly trying too. Now he had been told by Power Plate " the motors are the same, so it will work" So in an attempt to get a real answer he contacted me.
So why didn't they work .....
Simple. The isolators are usually made of rubber. And rubber comes in what they call "shore hardness" ( aka how hard the rubber is on number scale ) So normal foam would be a 30, a car tyre would be a 90 etc...
The isolators are pushed and pulled by the machine as it moves. But a number of factors go into how much force is applied to the rubber. One of them being the weight behind the movement. Now the VibroGym is made of steel, the Power Plate is made of plastic. So even though both materials are being pushed around by the same motors, the force on the rubber varies quite considerable. In this case the Power Plate had lost so much energy by using plastic that it didn't even have enough force to overcome the isolators. Confusing the technician.
How it applies to the user ...?
If the machine is fighting its own design faults constantly. It will lose lots of energy. Meaning your workout will give lesser results even though you might be doing everything correctly.
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-08-19 14:14:36
Read this folks ......
Proof that someone can tell the truth and still get a sale. No fake specs needed. Just realistic results based on what the machine can actually do.
I think if you contact Mike, he actually had 2 machines. 0272 576908
Kym
Posted On:2010-08-19 13:46:46
Thank you for your advice and info Lloyd. I missed out on Mikes machine and am trying to compare the one you commented on on TM last night and the Australian Hypervibe Performance Whole Body machine as a high energy lineal is outside my price range. I am wanting to lose weight, get and stay fit, strong, and improve bone density. My son would like to stay fit and improve muscle mass. He is the tall thin type. I thought once I had one a few trips to Hamilton or Tauranga to learn how to use it properly would be a good idea but 2hrs driving 3 times a week is a bit out of the question. Any advice would be much appreciated as I dont want to buy a machine and then find it wont do what I want it to. Thank you
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-08-19 12:59:40
Kym....
(1) The main difference between any Pivotal or Lineal system is the ability to surpass the standard Hyper-Gravity formula which is FQ x Amplitude.
Basically that is where the machine tries to lift you up, against the pull of gravity, temporarily making you heavier. All Medium Energy Lineal and all Pivotal systems are limited to this effect. Medium Energy Lineal because they are physically too light. High Speed Pivotal because it has an axis. ( think of a see-saw in a park, if someone tries to put more energy into it than needed and it smashes into the ground. It almost breaks the pivot point in the middle).
High Energy Lineal adds inertia into the formula. So the workout literally feels heavier and it can be much shorter. In a commercial setting very important so your customers can progress past just staying on a machine longer and longer. Mike Hair can attest to this, as he has run both systems over an extended period of time.
Note: The time factor is not so important for people at home, so a good Pivotal machine has its place in the market.
How it really changes the workout: The extra inertia can also create new high tone muscle quite quickly, and hence burn more fat. But again there is a price involved in getting this effect, there is no way to produce force cheaply. So home ownership is highly unlikely for anything truly High Energy.
(2) Elite Fitness are not measuring anything. That is the problem. In those machines case they are just quoting the power source ( which in N.Z. 240v 50-60hz ) to deliberately try and confuse the consumer. ( I have dealt with them personally, and they are very dishonest ). For anyone with even a small amount of experience, simply putting your foot on the machine would tell you it is not running at 50-60hz
" Vibration Training Plate Specialist" indeed.
Kym
Posted On:2010-08-19 11:27:10
Hi. I have read a lot of this site and found it VERY good and watched several youtube videos. Can someone answer a couple of questions for me please. What is the difference workout wise between the high energy lineal, and premium speed pivotal machines. I know with the first both sides go up,down together and the 2nd alternate. It seems that the high energy lineal machines are extremely pricey for personal use but the closest commercial machines are over an hour from where I live. The 2nd question is on the 2nd grade machines like Elite Fitness VIB558 11 what are they measuring to get 50-60Hz if they are not honestly doing this. Thank you for your help.
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-08-18 20:11:37
Good example of how lazy most salespeople are.
Some guy called Jim Rollince from a company Gym Source, that sell home gym equipment. Contact Di Heap to see if he could be a contributor to her website ( www.vibeplus.com ) And guess what he sells, that’s right Power Plate.
I don’t think the email he got back was very welcoming. LOL
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-08-12 12:52:38
Carol...
Here are the current prices for some Pivotal machines..
Crazy-Fit , Gym Form Vibro Max etc... $300 --- $1400 ( depending on where you get it from even though from same factory. )
T-Zone ------ $1200 ( $ Aus )
NitroFit ------- $1000 -- $2500 ( $ U.S. ) Price depends on model.
Galileo ------ $7800 ----- $19,000 ( $ Aus ) Price depends on model.
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-08-10 14:57:29
Carol...
It really depends on what price you are willing to pay, and if you actually intend using the machine regularly. Because then after sales support becomes important .
Eg... The really cheap Crazy-Fit , Gym-Form Vibro Max etc... machines can give some results ( if used with proper exercise poses, not standing watching TV like they show on the adverts ) But they will break and you will get no support. Notice the only ones you see for sale second hand on auction sites have only been used about 3 times. ( By the owners own admition most of the time ) . You never see one that was used "all the time" and the person just got bored. This is not a coincidence, the rest are at the rubbish tip or in the garage broken.
Note: If they break they cost more to fix than buying a new one.
Units like the T-Zone are better quality and come with after sales support. Similar design but usually run a bit faster, giving a better workout. They also tend to be more honest in what you have to do to get results pose wise.
There is also companies like NitroFit -- U.S. that sell good Pivotal units.
Then you can go all the way up to a Galileo, but you have to be prepared to pay for that kind of quality.
My advice, I think going for a medium priced unit with a reputable company is the best choice if you are in the market for a Pivotal home machine.
Carol
Posted On:2010-08-10 11:52:21
Great site guys. Took a while to read it but worth the effort. What do you really think of the pivotal machines they sell on the internet. Completely worthless or what
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-08-07 10:55:58
Just to recap head of Soloflex Jerry Wilsons statements .......
( and remember this is not some uneducated salesperson )
When Soloflex first began selling WBV equipment I had no idea what kind of feedback we’d be getting. The most surprising was that a few people were reporting losing fat. I still don’t understand how that could happen but why would anyone report that if it didn’t happen? One lady claimed she lost 30 pounds.
As for high levels of vibration being necessary to induce the conditioning effects, this is clearly repudiated by the Juvent device, a certified medical device that operates below .3g’s. Vibration is just vibration, regardless of the mechanical method chosen to induce it. Perhaps there is a “most efficient” device on the market but everyone selling the expensive WBV Platforms claims that title with their “proprietary” advantage.
Note : Juvent did not claim weight loss was achieved or achievable from their low amplitude, High Fq unit .
Several of our customers have reported significant weight loss simply standing and stretching on our WBV Platform. I didn’t expect this (and it’s hardly a scientific study) but you’ve explained pretty well why it could happen. Thanks
Note: No exercise poses needed, no extra weights needed. He is very clear on this point.
In both statements I think it is clear Jerry Wilson of SoloFlex is deliberately trying to perpetrate the myth that" all and any" vibration causes weight loss, and the construction of the machine makes zero difference. I think everybody involved in the industry will agree this is a bald faced lie.
As as I have often said " if any vibration made you lose weight, all truck drivers would be skinny"
He is the enemy of everyone who takes this science seriously. And his company is to be blacklisted for this reason.
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-08-06 14:41:15
Was informed today that 3 Gyms in Townsville were calling their Chinese made Gym Form machines Vibra-Train machines. Made contact with them and hopefully that's the end of it.
But what gets me is these gyms buy machines not even remotely similar to training machines, and tell people it is. Giving a very bad impression of what Vibration Training is all about. I mean if they are not clued up enough to get fooled into buying these machines in the first place, what other advice are they giving. That standing on it for 10 mins staring at the wall will help you lose weight ?
I mean really what Gym owner would believe an infomercial ?
