Please read through the articles that cover your questions, or topic of conversation before posting, as understanding the basics give the community a better chance of helping you.Please Note: Most of the frequently asked questions we have had over the years have their own article already.
The "proof by any scientific standard" you ask for I have seen to date in my industry is pathetic, to a point you are forced to wonder if is some of them are missing some stuff upstairs. Their version of "proof" means nothing to me as my standards are much higher than theirs, and I am so far ahead of them in the understanding and practicalities this science I can afford to be arrogant about it.
I predicted that past research by your "academic" community would be pulled to pieces, shown to be full of logical errors, and actually hold back our industry. And I was right. On top of this they have done nothing to forward the industries understanding of Vibration Training or given companies the ability to build better machines. Their only use so far has been for advertising purposes.
So we will cover that again........ THE ONLY USE THEY HAVE BEEN TO ANYONE ARE MARKETERS
But that's just my opinion right , what about cold hard facts. Well Power Plate came on hard and heavy in my country with tons of "peer reviewed research" and lots of marketing money. I did practically no marketing and just went about building better machines. And what happened, I crushed them ! Their science, their experts and their machines are now a joke on my country. But they ticked all the right boxes for your "proof by any scientific standard" .
So how did I beat them ? Simple, the consumer got on Power Plate, and went " that's interesting", they then got on mine ....... and stayed on . They voted with their wallets.
Now all companies are trying to build better machines, but not because of their "research / marketers", but because of competitive pressure. I met with a top PP person last year ( Mark Minter ) , and he said everything I had predicted when I was their Product Manager was right, and they should have listened. Moving to China was a mistake and the science had not been completed. When I left I took all my ideas with me and I will continue to do things my way. Regardless of your opinion of my work Richard .
Now remember this is a industry conversation site, not a company site. But if you go to my own company site, what does it say under research.......
The reason we have removed the existing research is this; our units are built to a standard we believe has not been seen in the industry to date, instead most research has been done on machines we have not been given the full engineering tests for so we believe it unethical to repeat the test results until such time as these standards have been meet.
John
Posted On:2010-02-02 06:50:57
I just received some confidential information from a researcher who has been involved with several studies on Power Plate with one actually going on right now. This information has not been presented or published yet and I promised I would not say anything about this until then. So stay tuned folks.
John Weatherly
Di Heap
Posted On:2010-02-02 02:03:59
Richard
Do you still not understand?The designer and maker of a product do their own product testing, manufacturing checks and performance reviews.
They do NOT do scientific/academic review on their own product.
You can argue all you like but the proof that new customers want is in seeing other customer’s results.
BCA tests are an added bonus because the “before” and “after (3-6 months)” results cannot be faked.Winning competitions as some of our athletes have done is a bonus.Bone density improvement as shown by DEXA is a bonus. Improved/normalised blood test results is a bonus for me and I don’t need academic research to help me see that 3 years of Vibra-Train has given me the physical strength and good blood test results I now have.
Richard
Posted On:2010-02-01 21:04:28
Lloyd, you and your choir have a number of times stated that is proven that your machines will change body composition. So a simple YES or NO question Lloyd. This proof that you refer to, would it be considered proof by any scientific standard anywhere in the world? By not answering this question directly with a YES or NO answer, will be taken as a NO.
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-02-01 15:35:17
For a bunch of guys who seem to hold academia high, you sure don't seem to like to read and educate yourselves. Too much effort I suppose. Or let me guess, you only read stuff that is going to fortify what you already think you know. A contradiction or something you don't understand is automatically discounted.
Kinda proves our point for us don't you think ?.
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-02-01 15:18:59
Colin....
But I think Mike takes it for granted people can read and follow instructions. Like at the top of this page.
EG... Please read through the articles that cover your questions, or topic of conversation before posting, as understanding the basics give the community a better chance of helping you.
AKA... We help those who help themselves.
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-02-01 15:14:11
I have done no weight training or any other form of exercise now since mid 2005. The aim was to do 5 years with absolutely no other stimulation to my body other than my machines. My diet consist of kebabs and other such healthy fare.
It is a personal experiment and not something I would recommend to the average user. For me as a designer knowing what its limitations are is just as important as what what it can accomplish. And it has been surprising on a number of levels. The first thing I had to do was spot all the things that were missing in the pre-1999 work. Once I had written my theory I built the machines in accordance with them. Going in a completely different direction than standard practice.
I am getting another shot done on my 42nd birthday in 2 weeks to compare.
Then later this year I move to the next phase in my designs to athletic 100% bio-mechanical machines. And see if my other theories are correct. As always time will tell.
Colin
Posted On:2010-02-01 15:03:24
Lloyd This is what mike said
I worked out on the vibrogym for 2 years at 40hz. They kept me in good toned shape but never put on muscle size.
After using the vibra-train at 43hz for only a matter of weeks my muscles where much fuller and bigger. I am an ex bodybuilder and do nothing else but vibration training, so i know this machine alone set on 43hz works.
Henz
Posted On:2010-02-01 14:54:36
Yes, that is a very muscular body in the picture. Lloyd, has this been acheived from Vib training alone? Do you do any or have you done any weight training that would contribute to this ?
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-02-01 14:51:16
I would also like to add...
I am the only designer who also writes material to explain in plain English why I do things. And I usually articulate it in such a way that common sense or general knowledge is used during these "thought experiments " . I do not just say, "It vibrates so it works, trust me "
In other words, name 1 theory I have released, that was not backed up by an article which explained said theory.
Colin......
Please, please read my work before asking questions like that. The Fq has nothing to do with Mike results.
What I find really interesting- Is that Mike Hair says after training for 2 yrs he didn't see any results (coming from a ex body builder) but yet moving up only 3 Hertz he noticed massive gains in a matter of 2 weeks. Is this possible.I mean i did do weights in my younger days and know if takes months and months to see a change in yourself with hard training of heavy weights yet you achieved this so quick by just adding in 3 more hertz to the vibrating plate of a machine.If this is true then I think you might have hit the jackpot in your theory's. I mean this is a major breakthrough and call for the press to know more .Please call the British journal Mike and put New Zealand on the map as leading inovaters. You are bound to get a grant from the Govt for further testing
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-02-01 14:41:07
I have a question.......
Why do you guys seem to think I should care what the scientific community thinks of my work ?
They have done nothing for me in this field, so why would I respect their opinion. My own opinion of them is based on what I have seen so far. Bottom feeders who do practically zip to develop things, instead just hanging around waiting for someone else to do all the work so they can get a grant to test that said work. Don't have to be smart to do that, just methodical. And I can point you in the direction of tons of research that was a complete waste of time because the researchers were too stupid to even know what to look for. Like testing the machine first.
Waste of time, waste of money, waste of space.
How many people do you know even read entire research papers anyway. Most academics themselves just skip to the "conclusion". Its just all a big " I'm so important " fest, when in fact they are basically useless to most of us.
I mean who is remembered, the guy who invented something, or the researcher who validated it ?
Lloyd does not use his picture for advertising, he has been doing this for over 4 years now with no other form of training and has packed on muscle.
As an ex body builder i have tried many methods of training and over the past 17 months have only used vibration training. I have put on muscle size. That is all the evidence 99% of the population want, physical results!
Any one can write a bullshit article or make a t.v Ad. The consumer wants results not marketing...
The only ones that are hell bent on seeing scientific evidence are usually only the geeks that write it.
While you lot sit around waiting on some lazy arse academic to write a scientific paper I will keep on working out on my vibra-train machine and build more muscle!
HenzRyner
Posted On:2010-02-01 14:08:38
Can someone please post the link to this picture of lloyd. Id like to have a look if thats ok
HenzRyner
Posted On:2010-02-01 14:04:44
Yes, agreed! that using a body fat analyzer is just nonsense and especially on your self as a basis for your testing programme. Anyone would know that to get a good idea, in-depth testing needs to be done. As an example- You would need 20-20 subjects,male female,black white fat small etc, all on the same diets most doing vibration training,some doing weights,running etc etc. These people will need their weight taken regualy, blood pressure,heart rate,cholesterol monitored, they need to be tested for strength,flexibility,speed etc etc etc.You all get the idea!! This process needs to be in depth and anything other is just cheap talk .
MikeHair
Posted On:2010-02-01 13:58:25
Read my post properly....DICK.
The photo of Lloyd was the results he acheived from vibration training, not a paid for endorsment. I know Lloyd personally and can vouch that he does no other form of training
I asked for other manufacturers who claim to be the best to show their results from using there own product.
Richard
Posted On:2010-02-01 13:44:53
Lloyd,
So you admit that your proof, holds no weight in the scientific community? It is proof only according to your standards?
Mike Hair,
You are a marketers dream. There are lots of late night television infomercials that provide the kind of photographic evidence you require.
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-02-01 13:38:10
No Mike...
What he is saying is he wants to see 50 research papers done with no conflicts of interest, and no flaws in the protocols. Before he will believe anything. Which is his prerogative.
But what he seems to not grasp is the fact this is a new science, my work is original and not based on old theories. In fact it would appear he has ZERO idea how things are invented and developed and wants to skip straight to the end , so he can then decide if he wants to try it or not.
This is a typical characteristic of a "user" of goods, a simple shopper. Most have no clue as to how much work goes into getting anything made, so they can have choices in life. Everything they do and everything they have is because someone else did understand the process. And was willing to work through it.
Not skip to the end.
MikeHair
Posted On:2010-02-01 13:17:20
So are you saying that physical results is not evidence that something works?
Hmmmm i wonder who the dumb one is.
What is your question on here?
or are you just another one of those that sit on the sidelines and have never achieved anything in there lives but are happy to pull down others that do?
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-02-01 13:15:41
Richard..
If you want randomized studies then get the academics to do some. But that would mean you would have to find some smart and motivated enough to do them first. That is not my job, I am simply the developer of the technology and have my own testing standards. And my own criteria for success. I do not know if you have noticed, but I am doing quite well without any "academics" help so far.
Besides, you can not ask a commercial company to be directly involved in the kinds of trials you suggest, as they are never taken seriously and are usually just masked marketing. Everyone knows this.
But I have given an open invitation ( in 2006 ) to any academic group who wants to test my theories on my machines, in my studio. But so far I have had no takers. Hardly my fault we have such slow academics in N.Z. is it ?
Richard
Posted On:2010-02-01 13:02:37
Mike Hair,
Was that a serious response?
What does the number of articles on this site, have to do with Lloyd's choir preaching?
Now a photo is evidence? Are you that dumb?
MikeHair
Posted On:2010-02-01 12:54:51
DICK
If this site is just Lloyd preaching to the choir could you kindly point me towards another site on vibration training that has as many original articles as this one.
And has evidence of the results, like the photo of Lloyd with no shirt on, showing his results from just vibration training only...
There's a challenge to other companies, if their machines are as good as they say they are then they shouldn't have a problem showing off their physics
Richard
Posted On:2010-02-01 12:40:40
I agree with Peter. This site is nothing more than Lloyd preaching to the choir. Your BCA tests don't prove a damn thing, what a mockery of science!
Ever heard of a randomized controlled trial, and the various levels of scientific evidence? In health, evidence has levels of classification from Level 1 down to Level 5. Level 1 evidence comes from systematic reviews of randomised controlled trials. Level 5 evidence comes from expert opinion or case studies. Level 5 evidence is not considered proof of anything.
Blogging on an internet forum, that YOUR CUSTOMERS, using YOUR MACHINE, have increased muscle and lost fat via a BCA test, doesn't even meet a Level 5 classification. This is your proof? What a joke. I have never heard the word proof used so loosely in all my life.
Di Heap
Posted On:2010-02-01 03:28:13
Peter,
Quote “Im sure Power Plate are doing more research than simply using a Inbody 3.0 Body Comp Analyzer like Vibra Train”
The BCA machine proves muscle gain (and fat-loss and overall fitness score increase) in people who are only using Vibra-Train for their resistance work-out.It sorts out Truth from Maybe (Subjective opinion).
For machine analysis – is it working to specs? Of course other tests are done on Vibra-Train machines with written proof given by outside testers.
Academic Research? It will happen when researchers agree to treat the machines and the participants with care and they use the Vibra-Train Safety Program not some other “do what you want” style.
Read this carefully – The machines and the Safety Program work in perfect symmetry to give the results we see in real people from housewives to athletes
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-01-31 17:43:10
Here is a good question.....
Why would I recommend the good companies to the consumer but not warn people about the bad ones ? Common sense to me.
And why is it always about money and getting sales ?
Maybe just having money for the sake of it doesn't float my boat. Maybe its power I crave. Maybe I wont be happy until I am Emperor of the World and everybody has a brass statue of me in their bathroom.
Who knows why I do stuff.
Mike Hair
Posted On:2010-01-31 17:13:40
Peter
You say that Lloyd is anti competitive by putting people on the blacklist that are his opposition, sorry buddy in the last 4 years of knowing Lloyd he has given away hundreds of sales to the opposition, he gets e-mails every day from people wanting a machine and he recommends they try b4 they buy, never promoting his company in front of others unless they are looking specifically for a full commercial system.
Lloyd does not generate business off the back of slanderers comments or hear say, every thing he puts out there is fact and open to full criticism, which is more than i can say for most companies in this industry.
Lloyd has nothing to hide and if you stick around long enough to get to know him you will find this out for yourself
A Question to you Peter?
Are you new to this industry or have you been involved for a while?
If you are new then you can be forgiven for your lack of knowledge, if not then there is no excuse for asking questions that have been proven time and time again.
Mike
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-01-31 16:54:57
Peter....
Out of curiosity, what would you use besides a Body Composition Analyzer for someone looking to gauge body composition change ?
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-01-31 16:43:03
David M. Bazett-Jones ......... 2007
"I would argue that it is the ethical responsibility of the manufacturer to do this testing and report the results"
"As far as my study ( on the PowerPlate) , we only measured the accelerations (which were different than the manufacturer’s claimed accelerations).
"I can only wish that I thought of this prior to doing this study"
These comments were made by a researcher that was working with Power Plate. As you can see he was not happy the machines did not do as advertised. His own tests had to confirmed this.
But Power Plate had known this since 2004.
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-01-31 16:13:05
Sorry Peter but your arguments are not new or original....
(1) Independent engineering tests from different countries, one even by a Power Plate researcher and actually stated on his released research, proves beyond a doubt machines were released running under-spec. I have been in legal action with Power Plate over this issue and won. Hence I can say it publically with no repercussions.
Power Plate are only given the hardest time by us because they deserve it. They have proven to us over time to have ZERO ethics. No-one forced them to do the things they have done so you will find they get given no slack here. If they want to claim to be industry leaders but act otherwise, they are a target.
(2) If you do any homework on me at all, you will find I support and give sales to other companies all the time. I always have and always will support the honest players in my industry. If you are somehow inferring I am anti-competitive in some way, you are very wrong and very uneducated.
(3) No I believe keeping quite about unethical or dishonest companies makes me a party to their actions. I want to belong to an industry I am proud of, not ashamed of. So just "going about my own business" is not an option. The only people that have ever said that to me are marketers or salespeople who are fixated on money and lack ethics themselves.
(4) "The Blacklist " is only a list of offenders who are unwilling to change. So are dangerous to our industries reputation.
(5) I think using a Body Comp Analyzer is the ONLY way to gauge results so "opinions" are discounted. At least it is scientific and can not be manipulated.
And finally, I ask no-one to just trust me. I ask people to try different products, compare them to what I do, read my work, and make up their own minds as to what level I am at.
They will either think I am smarter than my competition or not.
Peter
Posted On:2010-01-31 12:41:00
This is not an attck on you so please take it for what it is but....
You just sated to me" I think you mean you hope "Power Plate" are doing more research than that "
Lloyd, so you do agree that using a 3.0 Body Comp Analyzer is just pathetic.
