Please read through the articles that cover your questions, or topic of conversation before posting, as understanding the basics give the community a better chance of helping you.Please Note: Most of the frequently asked questions we have had over the years have their own article already.
You say that Lloyd is anti competitive by putting people on the blacklist that are his opposition, sorry buddy in the last 4 years of knowing Lloyd he has given away hundreds of sales to the opposition, he gets e-mails every day from people wanting a machine and he recommends they try b4 they buy, never promoting his company in front of others unless they are looking specifically for a full commercial system.
Lloyd does not generate business off the back of slanderers comments or hear say, every thing he puts out there is fact and open to full criticism, which is more than i can say for most companies in this industry.
Lloyd has nothing to hide and if you stick around long enough to get to know him you will find this out for yourself
A Question to you Peter?
Are you new to this industry or have you been involved for a while?
If you are new then you can be forgiven for your lack of knowledge, if not then there is no excuse for asking questions that have been proven time and time again.
Mike
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-01-31 16:54:57
Peter....
Out of curiosity, what would you use besides a Body Composition Analyzer for someone looking to gauge body composition change ?
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-01-31 16:43:03
David M. Bazett-Jones ......... 2007
"I would argue that it is the ethical responsibility of the manufacturer to do this testing and report the results"
"As far as my study ( on the PowerPlate) , we only measured the accelerations (which were different than the manufacturer’s claimed accelerations).
"I can only wish that I thought of this prior to doing this study"
These comments were made by a researcher that was working with Power Plate. As you can see he was not happy the machines did not do as advertised. His own tests had to confirmed this.
But Power Plate had known this since 2004.
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-01-31 16:13:05
Sorry Peter but your arguments are not new or original....
(1) Independent engineering tests from different countries, one even by a Power Plate researcher and actually stated on his released research, proves beyond a doubt machines were released running under-spec. I have been in legal action with Power Plate over this issue and won. Hence I can say it publically with no repercussions.
Power Plate are only given the hardest time by us because they deserve it. They have proven to us over time to have ZERO ethics. No-one forced them to do the things they have done so you will find they get given no slack here. If they want to claim to be industry leaders but act otherwise, they are a target.
(2) If you do any homework on me at all, you will find I support and give sales to other companies all the time. I always have and always will support the honest players in my industry. If you are somehow inferring I am anti-competitive in some way, you are very wrong and very uneducated.
(3) No I believe keeping quite about unethical or dishonest companies makes me a party to their actions. I want to belong to an industry I am proud of, not ashamed of. So just "going about my own business" is not an option. The only people that have ever said that to me are marketers or salespeople who are fixated on money and lack ethics themselves.
(4) "The Blacklist " is only a list of offenders who are unwilling to change. So are dangerous to our industries reputation.
(5) I think using a Body Comp Analyzer is the ONLY way to gauge results so "opinions" are discounted. At least it is scientific and can not be manipulated.
And finally, I ask no-one to just trust me. I ask people to try different products, compare them to what I do, read my work, and make up their own minds as to what level I am at.
They will either think I am smarter than my competition or not.
Peter
Posted On:2010-01-31 12:41:00
This is not an attck on you so please take it for what it is but....
You just sated to me" I think you mean you hope "Power Plate" are doing more research than that "
Lloyd, so you do agree that using a 3.0 Body Comp Analyzer is just pathetic.
Also why should people believe your theory.
Please let me know as I can't understand this.
Peter
Posted On:2010-01-31 12:33:52
Hope you don't mind me saying Lloyd , but you and others on this site (But I take it you are main instigator ) seem obsessed with power plate and generally others whose machines are of different spec to yours.
Wwhats this blacklist about?, looks like its full of people you just generally disagree with in your theory, or opposition to sales. Don't you think you should just get on with your business and stop trying to succeed off the back of slanderous comments, non of which has been proved by the way. All of this is just hear say.
I am very new to this site and hasn't taken me very long to see right thru this self promotion.
Please provide proof of machines running at lower hertz than advertised . I'd be keen to see this.
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-01-31 09:30:49
Peter...
I think you mean you hope "Power Plate" are doing more research than that. But the evidence would suggest otherwise.
(a) Their research center does not seem to even exist.
(b) The Drs and Researchers involved a few years ago have walked away.
(c) I am sure some Universities are doing their own studies. Power Plate released a statement a while ago saying that they think they have the rights to all research, even those not done on their machine. So I am sure they will say its all their effort.
But as they say, proof is in the pudding......
(d) They would or should have better machines than mine or anybody else's. They should have had significant breakthroughs by now. But instead they have gone backwards since 2004 just trying to build cheaper versions of old machines. They lost any good staff they had, machines breaking down left right and center, and machines running so underspec as to be a joke ???? I have photos of the machines actually just falling apart. Anyone with any brains will be asking themselves exactly how does a " bunch of experts" screw up so badly.
Think about it, I am a mortician and designed then built better machines in my spare time. And then flattened their company in my spare time . I am still a mortician. They work at it full time. Explain that ..
So if they do have a research team, they are more than likely a troupe of chimpanzees in a cage with an unplugged, broken machine. I mean they couldn't do any worse right ?
John
Posted On:2010-01-31 03:50:34
Interesting what Lloyd mentioned about Power Plate releasing machines with Hz variance of up to 12 percent unloaded. I am all for the scientific method but if researchers are being funded by Power Plate this must be looked at with a jaundiced eye. I spoke to Dr. Jeff McBride around 3 weeks ago and also last summer. McBride is a researcher and colleague of Power Plate Scientific Advisory Board Member Dr. David Nieman at Appalachian St. While 3 studies were done a while back at Appalachian St, McBride said they have no plans for further Power Plate studies. He does not see any benefit to vibration training that normal strength training does not already accomplish. And I think his work with vibration platforms has consisted of just Power Plate. Dr. Nieman who is listed on the Power Plate Advisory Board on their site which says he heads the Power Plate Research Center at Appalachian St has been very elusive. In fact, I have not been able to contact Dr. Nieman. I did contact the dept head at Appalachian St, a man named Dr. Paul Gaskill, and he said he would get back to me. So far, I have heard nothing from Dr. Nieman or Dr. Gaskill. This is very disturbing to not have simple questions answered.
When I talked with Dr. McBride, he said Power Plate gave them money. Yet, neither Neiman or Gaskill will even answer simple questions about the Power Plate Research Center which McBride told me .... DID NOT EVEN EXIST .
McBride said they did I believe 3 studies and did not have plans for more studies on Power Plate. And here Power Plate is still saying Dr. Nieman heads the Power Plate Research Center at Appalachian St. If there is nothing going on and nothing planned for the future, it would seem to me there is not a Power Plate Research Center at Appalachian St.
The dodgy Dr. Nieman cannot be contacted about this by me and Dr. Gaskill has not responded. If they do not want questions about the Power Plate Research Center perhaps they should not be saying under the Dr. Nieman listing on the Power Plate Scientific Advisory Board than Nieman heads the Power Plate Research Center at Appalachian St.
Additionally, one study published by Cormie et al on Power Plate in JSCR in 2006 which had McBride and Triplett as colleagues involved with the study and is on the Power Plate site, does not mention anything at the end of the study about the study being funded by Power Plate. If Power Plate funded the study this is deceptive and not full disclosure in a research journal. Perhaps there are others like this that Power Plate has funded and full disclosure has not been reported in research publications. This contaminates the research litereature in my view. I wonder if this would come under conflict of interest or just getting or making a few bucks.
Mike Hair
Posted On:2010-01-30 14:35:35
DonO
The machines were called vibro-magic impoted and sold by AAL (Australia Aesthetic Lasers) and in Nz by Vibro-Health (Australasia). But they could be sold under any name just by changing the sticker.
The person responsible was Mark Newton operating out of Crows Nest, Sydney, his accomplice was Michael McLean who from memory was from Melbourne.
I only have 1 vibra-train machine at the moment and 2 vibrogyms that where sent down from vibra-train when the Vibro-Magics broke.
Mike
DonO
Posted On:2010-01-30 13:46:47
Mike I read on another forum that you had a terrible time with other machines what brand was that and which company sold them...also thought you have two vibratrain machines
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-01-30 00:36:02
Sorry for the forum being off for the last few days.
We have had an upgrade.
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-01-28 23:29:20
I again want to reiterate to other companies reading this site. Just running a machine at 43hz will only make the machine "feel" more comfortable for the user.
If you do not add in other factors, the "results" will be identical to past studies on your machines.
Mike Hair
Posted On:2010-01-28 22:31:07
DocPower
I own several machines ranging from pivotal 1-35hz to vibrogym 30 - 50hz to vibra-train set at 43hz.
The most comfortable machine by far is the vibra-train at 43hz, my customers request this machine time an time again,remember the body does not lie. It has become a thorn in my side that i have only one vibra-train machine, people don't like the feeling of the vibrogyms. Hence i am in the process of getting my second vibra-train machine.
I worked out on the vibrogym for 2 years at 40hz. They kept me in good toned shape but never put on muscle size.
After using the vibra-train at 43hz for only a matter of weeks my muscles where much fuller and bigger. I am an ex bodybuilder and do nothing else but vibration training, so i know this machine alone set on 43hz works.
My customers have seen much better results also. One that comes to mind has been with me for 3 years, and the first time she used the vibra-train machine at 43hz she phoned me the following day to complain about her sore muscles.
I know you are looking for long term studies but this is a developing industry that has not even scratched the surface yet so at the moment we can only go by personal results which i guess is the best study you could have...
Remember a man or woman with an experience is never at the mercy of a man or woman with a theory
PhilippaChurch
Posted On:2010-01-28 21:39:59
Yes think they would need to build a frame thing to act as a support which would replicate your handlebars although not vibrating of course. We are looking to do that for the studio
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-01-28 21:36:37
Yes Body-Shaker would be good. But they must understand positioning is still super important, no matter how hard it is.
PhilippaChurch
Posted On:2010-01-28 21:32:56
Thanks. They are not near us so cant use Vibratrains. Would something like a BodyShaker be better then.
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-01-28 21:30:32
The lighter machines, Lineal or Pivotal, will only give stimulation which will increase circulation etc.... you could not really say if it would increase quality of life significantly. But anything is better than nothing.
The 84 yr old who comes to our studio ( seen in a picture in one of our videos ) is a Minister with Parkinson's. When he first came in he needed help up the curb and inside the studio. He now drives himself here, comes inside and puts himself through the routine with real no assistance needed.
Regarding posting ...... Use another program or Email to type up in, then copy and paste. That is what I do. I find Windows Live Mail is the best.
PhilippaChurch
Posted On:2010-01-28 21:19:33
I would be grateful for some advice on VT for Parkinsons, Is pivotal or lineal better and how high energy is required. Could they get away with a cheap therapy type machine for home use. Thanks. I miss question marks.
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-01-28 16:10:24
Docpower....
I must disagree with your statement regarding BCA tests. I think it is simplistic to only concentrate on body fat % , because as you stated, that can be influenced by a number of factors.
But I clearly stated that my goal was to reduce obesity through anabolic means. To create new muscle cells.
If you gain muscle quality and you are doing no other form of training but Vibration Training, then there is only one conclusion to be made. Regardless of all other influences. Because last time I checked the ONLY way to make new muscle is through exercise. That is why I concentrated so heavily on getting that right. I personally think it is the key to this technology truly changing lives.
Just to add another dimension to this conversation.
Research results over the years have been discounted by many in the industry due to Power Plate releasing thousands of machines that were running so under spec ( 12 hz variance than shown on digital display, unloaded ) , as to make a lot of Fq research basically invalid or contradictory.
You asked about other Fqs, well I would say a decade of failure by other companies to produce muscle with their off the shelf products with the "traditional" Fqs is all the evidence I need to say they were missing something pretty big.
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-01-28 15:41:26
Maybe you want to contact Wave in Canada, as you will find they have a similar protocol.
I think you are mistaken in thinking tons of research will be around to back up most of what we do, you are witnessing an industry forming.
My work is all original and it will be years before independent studies prove me right or wrong. All I can do is stand by my work and results to date. I wrote theory, made predictions ( putting myself in the line of fire if proven wrong ) and completed my machines.
I am letting others who have worked with other products to form their own opinion, and either make or break my reputation.
DocPower
Posted On:2010-01-28 15:27:19
Thanks but i was after something more scientific. No offense but you can test body fat and simply claim that something else was the cause. I mean a proper test all start with similar composition, same routine, same diet then compared across various frequencies. Not having a godoes this research exist
These machines are pretty cool. What they cost, ill email the supplier and find out if i can get one
Di Heap
Posted On:2010-01-28 15:23:00
If the machine feels rough or uncomfortable I wont go on it. That means small, one motor lineal home machines (I bought one to try out and soon re-sold it). Also machines that are smooth but with a sideways pulling sensation (PowerPlate) although I know some people are okay with them. And even medium/high force machines at 30hz feel uncomfortable enough to me that I would not have continued vibra training.
I've been blind tested on Vibra-Train machines and I've seen others tested. Change the fq up and down and let the customer choose where to stop - where the vibrations give a strong muscle response (i.e. It hurts) in a squat position yet the overall motion is smooth, non tearing on joints. They always choose 43hz (42-45), even new customers who are not used to the "feel" of Vibra-Train brand machines.
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-01-28 15:10:22
Note: I was attacked outright by Vibro-Gym sales staff and trainers in 2005 when I first released the 43hz , 3mm setting. The new Evolution now carries those exact settings.
That should show even the most hardcore company-line follower to question everything.
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-01-28 15:04:33
Body Composition Analysis ....
Form day one I purchased and Inbody 3.0 Body Comp Analyzer ( http://www.smitechasia.com/product.php?selected_product_id=122 ) That way my opinion and theories meant nothing unless I saw a body comp change. I still test all my theories in the same way.
My sole goal was to be able to build new muscle so we could fight obesity through anabolic means.
Note: I am not saying that 43hz is the only Fq to use, I could, and have built machines that gave excellent results on other Fqs, they were just too uncomfortable to use for the average person. Remember if we can not get people back on these machines, it is all for nothing.
I will be writing a lot more on this subject in the future, as I understand it is a contentious issue for those who have been taught not to question some companies protocols.
DocPower
Posted On:2010-01-28 14:30:04
Thankscan you point me these tests you have carried out please
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2010-01-28 14:27:20
Sorry but you may have read that on another site. The main Fq we promote is 43hz as an all round, results driven and user comfort level Fq.
Some companies claimed years ago that 27Hz - 30Hz was the optimum Fq because it causes the "longest" stretch reflex. But no proof that the longest stretch reflex attainable causes any more benefit than a slightly shorter one has been shown to date. It was just a theory.
In fact my tests showed other factors play a much more important role.
DoctorPower
Posted On:2010-01-28 13:36:20
Hi,
Ive read on your site that 35 to 40 hzt is the best proven frequency. Can someone please explain how they have tested this and what studies have been done to suuport this claim
Regards
Doc Power
Di Heap
Posted On:2010-01-28 12:55:39
Does Vibration Training really work for weight-loss?Read my article here:
Forum back up and running: Please remember this forum is for discussing the articles, swapping ideas and answering the myriad of questions surrounding this new form of training. Any personal attacks or off topic posts will be deleted.
Important notice: I am pleased to announce that a couple of individuals have been removed from "The Blacklist". This was due to their reversal in the decision to use another companies Trade-Marked name without permission.
