Please read through the articles that cover your questions, or topic of conversation before posting, as understanding the basics give the community a better chance of helping you.Please Note: Most of the frequently asked questions we have had over the years have their own article already.
So you can see that the specs on paper mean very little in reality.
Now to the Body-Shaker . The company just has a good long term reputation in building steel machines, that have mass. Designed by an old fashioned thinking engineer, that in this industry means quality.So we like them.
Note: Lock-Legged on a Pivotal is acceptable at lower speeds, and seeing as their cheap units only have lower speeds no injuries should occur. It is just that is not a weight loss/workout pose. It is a Therapy pose. They key is you can do it for 10 mins without getting tired. So everyone knows its not a workout. I don't care how uneducated someone is, everyone knows what a workout feels like.
As for invincible companies, I smashed Power Plate over here, with spreading the truth. Their lawyers failed to save them. So every ethical person counts in the grand scheme of things.
Tom
Posted On:2009-12-16 14:59:27
Lloyd,
Lock-legged.. I just cringe when I think about the damage that that will do. I'm sure they will help the people with knee surgeries later... I promise you that I will pass all the facts that I understand to people that ask but its just a drop in the bucket. The reality is that many people just don't want to know. They only want to know when something goes wrong and they need someone to blame. You mentioned before about the guy that opened up the gym that you would be surprised (or to that effect) that he was not educated about the vibration training. In my experience I would not be surprised at all. The Ottawa Citizen article says that his mom used it and it worked for her so he decided to open up a gym. I hope he did his research. I would not bet on it (lock-legged and all).
I've always believed in personal integrity and professionalism. You should be able to look yourself in the mirror. Lately I've seen things that are just horrific. Its a shame that our society has come to this. the story would be too long tell for this forum :) Bottom line its about $$ and thats all that some people care about. And they got an army of lawyers behind them. Sometimes though even that can't be enough. You can't deny laws of physics.
Sorry about rambling on.
Take care.
Tom
Tom
Posted On:2009-12-16 14:10:05
Hello PhilippaChurch,
I've been looking at the Bodyshaker before I posted the first message (since it is recommended by this web site) and it did not seem like there was a distributor in US/Canada but after you mention it I did send a message to them asking. We'll see what I get.
I'm assuming that Wave Contour Plus is inferior to Bodyshaker Jr? I know that Bodyshaker is recommended here but the specs look similar I guess there is a history and reputation of the company to consider. I will admit that I don't have all the background.
I'll see if I can get the Bodyshaker Jr. here. By the way if so can anyone provide reasons why they think its better then Wave Contour Plus. I'm not questioning your recommendation but just want to know technical reasons why you feel Bodyshaker is "better" at getting to my particular goals then Wave would be. Better workmanship? Asking since specs are similar.
Thanks so much.
Tom
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2009-12-16 13:16:57
The particular studio you mean is one of the worst situations, they are actually just getting people to stand there, lock-legged for 10 mins and calling it Vibration Training. And yes it will be hard to fix all the problems these guys create, but that is also why it is so important for anyone, no matter who you are, to be vocal and very direct about the issue.
" That is not Vibration Training , they are Con-Artists "
PhilippaChurch
Posted On:2009-12-16 08:42:50
Hi Tom
Its really frustrating when your country seems so behind in VT. We actually have the same in the UK very little knowledge that VT even exists and if so it is known as Powerplating. Grrrrr. Im guessing you cant get a Bodyshaker Jnr in Canada. They pack quite a punch for the money and size, but maybe not available out there. Shame about the Hypergravities as they are good machines when they work. However last thing you want is a machine that breaks and the company is thousands of miles away and not too happy to deal with the problems. Trust me, Ive been there.
Tom
Posted On:2009-12-16 06:32:36
Thanks Lloyd,
It's pretty slimy what those guys are doing. You know here in Ottawa I can bet that not many people know about vibration training. And after this T-Zone.. well its hard to change first impressions. I know that you're out there trying to fix things.
Its a bit disappointing for me to have limited choices but such is life. Thanks for your advice I will go with the Wave Contour Plus.
Tom
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2009-12-15 19:22:40
Those T-Zone studios are usually just a way to sell machines. Its a double wammy scam, they tell people "these are commercial quality machines, and you can have one at home for only $$$$ " And since people see them at the studio they think they must be, not realizing the studio replace the stock constantly to keep up appearances. When they have saturated the local market with them they will close up and move away.
Or the poor owner has been conned, but I do not see how someone could be that uneducated. One thing for sure though is cheap machines with massive limitations only hurt our industry in the long run.
Your decision...
The Wave does seem the better choice and unfortunately "upgrading" to a High Energy Lineal is purely semantic. The only one available to you is the HyperGravity and they are unreliable. So Wave it is.
Tom
Posted On:2009-12-15 16:08:48
Ok. I've I think I found the gym that just opened up in Ottawa, here is a google cached link of Ottawa Citizen (local newspaper).
The machine is a pivotal machine so not what I'm looking for, but figured I would send the info your way anyways. I would not waste time with this, looks more like only possible therapy benefits.
Tom
Tom
Posted On:2009-12-15 14:29:32
Gents, thanks for getting back so quickly.
Di Heap;
Close guess with the kids. I'm 34 (with two kids youngest is 9 months so its a bit crazy in this house). I'm 6" tall weight 176 pounds (pretty sure fat % is above or close to 20%). So am slowly accumulating on the abs... I'm a Computer Programmer so spend my days sitting on my butt mostly (one of the contributing factors to the situation). Lately I had some problems with my lower back after carrying a desk to my basement by myself (stupid I know).
Possibly my wife would be using the machine, she's a bit skeptical but I think once she tries it I'll have to keep her away. About trying the machine.. I live in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. I've looked at places here and lately there is a gym downtown that opened up that is doing vibration training but I don't know what machines they have, I will check. Its a long shot though that they're using anything of good quality, probably Power Plate. Thats what the local fitness stores carry. But I don't know for sure, I will check.
Injuries, it would appear that all the time sitting has taken its tole. I'm currently going to chiropractor for my lower back (also my left hip muscles need work) and am getting better. But my goal is not therapy as much as getting into shape which I think is the cause of my current problems. X-rays show nothing wrong and just had a MRI done last week (waiting for results) which was done just to be on the safe side. Ideally I would like to get back to my "see my abs" shape before the kids, don't know if thats possible with a 5K machine.
Lloyd;
I've looked at DKN G10 and am seeing it about 1K less then Wave Contour Plus. I know that $$ don't always translate to quality but am wondering if there is a difference here. Looking at the specs the Wave actually weights more and has bigger platform (I'm sure I'm missing a detail here :)). As I mentioned my main problem is time constraint so am not too ecstatic about eventually extending the work out time, however it might be inevitable with the budget that I have to work with. Let me ask you this, if you were getting a machine on which you know you would not plato for the least amount of dollars (home use) what would you go with? Also if for instance if I'm close $$ wise to a "next" level of a machine, I might be able to got higher with my budget (can wait) if it was worth it. If the value increase is worth it.
About HyperGravity, I've read enough blogs/messages to know the background ;) So know what you mean.
As a sight note, just an FYI. I'm frequently having problems loading the vibra-train.com and the vibra-train-advice.com (this one more often). It takes several tries to eventually get in and I often get "Server not found" error. Just letting you know, that all.
By the way I wish you guys would open up a Vibra-Train Gym here in Ottawa.
Again, thanks for the help.
Tom
Lloyd
Posted On:2009-12-15 13:55:12
I understand the HyperGravity situation is contentious, but I would like to assure all readers I personally did everything I could to stop it from happening. Even giving Josh engineering tips and things to watch for when building a High Energy Lineal machine of commercial quality ( which he ignored ) I am not over-exaggerating when I say every issue could have been avoided if he had taken my advice.
As with any engineering project if you wish to scale up the energy from a previous project, you need to fully understand the expediential forces you are dealing with. I do not agree with companies using the consumer and other peoples businesses as a trial and error testing ground. And then abuse the customer when the machines fail ???
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2009-12-15 12:25:24
TOM...
Wave is about your only choice in Canada, or you could look at DKN ( G10 unit ) Both companies are here to stay, with Wave edging out DKN in the medical support side of the industry. Both their machines will give ongoing results to a degree, but that may mean elongating your workouts as you progress.
HyperGravity are actually blacklisted by us at present with too many engineering, customer service and ethical issues to be supported.
Di Heap
Posted On:2009-12-15 09:32:44
Tom, a little more info would be helpful.You want to get in shape –what sort of shape are you in now?Do you have any injuries or health concerns we need to know about? dAnd your age – If you have kids taking up your time, you’re 30?Also your size/weight?
Will anyone else be using the machine also and if so what are their needs?
Have you trialled either of the machines?
Tom
Posted On:2009-12-15 05:50:49
Looks like I screwed up in my original post. Please disregard previous message.
Hello Lloyd,
First of all I would like to thank you for all the information and leadership that you have shown on the vibration training front. You know your craft well.
My question. I've been reading about vibration training and want to purchase a machine for home use. After the kids there just isn't enough time in the days to get consisant workout routine. I'm hoping that a short workout will help me. My goals are to get in shape and stay in shape, I used to got to the gym quite a bit. I'm planning to also suplement with some cardio workouts.
My budget is ~5K CDN from what I understand I should be able to get a decent machine for this?
I really like the community that is build around the Wave machinces and it seems like its more caring towards helping people. Hypergravity strikes me like they just want the sale.
Lloyd, I was hoping that you could comment on my two choices taking into consideration my goals. Which machine would be best. I want the machine to keep challanging me and am afraid that I will reach a platoe. Also if there is any other alternative machine that you feel would be better in this price range for my needs please suggest (I live in Canada). If you have any questions please let me know. I thank you for your time Sir.
Tom
Tom
Posted On:2009-12-15 05:39:22
Posting does not work
I just tried posting a message and nothing happened. So this is a Test, sorry if it comes through. Is there a delay between when message is posted and when it appears on the webpage
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2009-12-10 10:21:38
From what I have seen Core Performance and API do not act in the best interests of their athletes, and are just marketers posing as trainers. Anyone serious about getting the best for their clients would have been asking the same questions John and I were. Instead they censored us. You would have thought that when the Power Plate research rep ( Scott Hopson ) on their site refused to answer some pretty important questions, alarm bells would have started ringing.
Quite amazing how money silenced those alarm bells.
I think people like Mark Verstegen are very short sighted and fail to understand what is coming. When the real industry arrives and they are publically shut out, it will hurt.
John
Posted On:2009-12-10 05:35:55
Thanks Jon. Lloyd and I know all about Mark Verstegen and API. In fact, I wrote advertising articles with Mark in 03 and 04 for an exercise company. Lloyd and I were kicked off the forum at coreperformance.com which is run by API a while back for asking questions about Power Plate. It seems one cant even ask intelligent questions without suffering repercussions.
John Weatherly
JonHyams
Posted On:2009-12-09 13:21:58
John,
Power Plate hasa facility in Scottsdale, Arizona through API aka atheltes performance institute. Its a super high end facility that trains professional athletes. Scottsdale is a hot spot for spring training baseball players. Most of them train there or at Triple threat performance in Tempe where they use Nitrofit Deluxe Pivotal and Pnuemex Provibe Lineal vibration side by side. Atheltes perfromance institute has several locations in the United States and is in contract with Powerplate. Google API to find out more or go to powerplates website to find out about the affiliation.
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2009-12-04 10:15:10
Dear Power Plate Australia,
" The inventor of Whole Body Vibration today as we know it is the chairman of Power Plate International " ???
I was sincerely hoping the new Power Plate Australia team was going to be more honest than the International company you keep, but obviously claiming to be the inventors of Vibration Training, instead of showing proper respect to its true founders, Dr Biermann , Dr Bosco , Nazarov et al. is not below you. The fact is Power Plate only released a more "commercial "version of Dr Boscos machine, and has done nothing of note since then. ( Except aim for cheaper manufacturing materials. ) The original Next Generation was a giant step backwards in design and had massive breakdowns and other engineering issues ( I know because I had to try and fix them ) , so your "Inventor Chairman" left to his own devices failed completely. Proof enough he is not what he claims.
So because of your disrespectful claims I will now continue actively making sure the consumer is aware of Power Plates past unethical behavior.
Note: The offences range from trying to sell faulty equipment to the disabled to putting fake "made in Holland " stickers on the back of machines made in China. I have a long list of offences that I am going to inform the public about for years to come. Simply because it disgusts me what Power Plate have done in the name of greed and you seem to be heading in the same direction.
I will also be highlighting how your new campaign of awareness regarding crappy machines flies in the face of the facts, that Power Plate machines have failed engineering tests in the past ( in multiple countries ) , which was never acknowledged and actively covered up.
Eg... David M. Bazett-Jones ( in regards to discovering the Power Plate machine he used in research was faulty, after he was encouraged him to tests it )
July 13th, 2007
U.S. Based researcher.
"I would argue that it is the ethical responsibility of the manufacturer to do this testing and report the results"
"I can only wish that I thought of this prior to doing this study"
"As far as my study in 2005, we only measured the accelerations (which were different than the manufacturer’s claimed accelerations)."
I also have independent engineering tests done by an Olympic athlete here in a N.Z. University that states he had been lied to by Power Plate about the performance of the machine. And to not trust them. This was presented to SPARC. So your warning of underperforming machines is a joke.
As Power Plates Product Manager in N.Z. I witnessed the cover up of multiple ethical concerns first hand, and was asked to keep my mouth shut ( I refused and left ) , so do not waste your time threatening me legally or denying any of it. As you will be aware Power Plate already tried that and failed, I had too much proof, which is why I am still allowed to make public statements like this. So unless you are going to publically put the record straight on a number of matters I will continue to expose Power Plate for what it is,
" the most unethical company in our industries history. "
The same Greg Hammann that misjudged the market and helped screw up Nautilus ?
After Greg Hammann walked out of Nautilus ...... The new CEOs tasks, analysts say, include repairing the damage done by Hammann, who flooded sporting-goods retailers with the company's Bowflex machines and apparel lines just as consumer spending sharply tailed off.
Adding to the company's woes, the Consumer Product Safety Commission on Wednesday announced a recall of 68,000 Bowflex Ultimate 2 machines, citing faulty fasteners that hold resistance rods. The rods can separate and strike a user or bystander, the commission said. It was the fourth Bowflex recall since 2004.
Nautilus stock has taken a pounding in recent months and hit a 52-week low this week of $6.26 a share.
One of the guys running Power Plate Australia now worked for the Royal Bank of Scotland ( a recent £24 billion loss was the biggest ever annual loss in UK corporate history )
Last time I checked Power Plate was in a fight for its very existence. So bringing people in who can not read markets or are involved in failed companies is hardly a good direction to take. But what would I know ?
John
Posted On:2009-12-04 06:01:16
I just looked at the Power Plate site again under U.S. and now cannot find the info about Greg Hammann being the new Global CEO under the About Us section where it mentioned Hammann being an expert in exercise physiology yet not having a degree or degrees in this discipline. From past experience, it appears Power Plate is up to their old deceptive tactics and lies to fool people. I have caught them over and over saying stuff that is not true on their site over the last few years.
John Weatherly
John
Posted On:2009-12-03 05:41:15
It says on the Power Plate site Greg Hammann was named Global CEO of Power Plate in Oct of 09. This is in the about us section. It also, in the article, called him an expert in exercise physiology. According to the information provided, Hammann does not have even a degree in exercise physiology. His academic training is in business. This is very common in the exercise field. People profess to be experts and yet do not have any academic training. Compare this with fields like medicine, law, engineering etc. Exercise is not a professional field.
John Weatherly
PhilippaChurch
Posted On:2009-12-03 05:07:08
There are a number of acadamies here in the UK. I use the word acadamies in the loosest possible form of course.
John
Posted On:2009-12-02 07:22:15
I looked at www.powerplate.com under U.S. for country and they are now showing pictures and using testimonials from Clint Eastwood, Hilary Swank, Courtney Cox etc. on the site. I am also curious about the Power Plate Academies and the locations of these Acadamies in the U.S. If anybody knows where they currently are please let me know.
John Weatherly
MarkPellett
Posted On:2009-11-29 23:06:22
Thanks for advice. Havent seen customer since though but will get more details.
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2009-11-28 09:48:25
I have been reading all the new research as it comes through.
But I am still very unimpressed at the academic understanding of Vibration Training. According to them if it vibrates then it qualifies. At least perceiving the different qualities a vibration has is not bloody rocket science. It is VERY, VERY basic physics. Again I will say for the record. These brainless academics and their tests will not make our industry any safer, more effective or move it forward.
It will be the designers who build better machines, prove their worth on the street and finally about 10 years later when academics finally "get it" and turn their attention to the real industry, will they become useful. Until then it is as infuriating as watching a group of monkeys trying to operate windows,
John
Posted On:2009-11-28 07:30:32
There is an interesting study by Lamont et al. on vibration and explosive strength at www.nlm.nih.gov, click on PubMed, and type in vibration exercise as search words.
John Weatherly
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2009-11-27 18:50:12
vibrationtrainingdevice-com...... Is it purely a sales and marketing site ?
I would like to bring about a discussion regarding the above mentioned website. Here are a couple of my concerns...
(1) The reviewer himself sells machines.
(2) He purely reviews machine based on engineering tests. Not the results the machine gives. As we all know engineering tests only give a very limited understanding of the quality of the machine and the results they give. He would have had to have zero experience on the various machines not to know this.
(3) He sells and gives Power Plates a recommended listing, even though he has previously stated that they would not let him tests the machines.
" It's 3 years I'm trying to make an in-depth review of the Powerplate series... I am always ready to, however I doubt they'll send me!
I was close to get one for my tests 2 years ago, they said it was on delivery but at the end they didn't send. Invited again... no one called back. "
" Now, I have a question or two. If you are so proud of your product, how come you avoid to compare with others? What best opportunity to show your values? "
Curiously he still has a ? next to the machines performance. So apparently sells them but has not tested them. Does this not go against the entire pretext of him being a reviewer and engineer ?
(4) He constantly points people towards Galileo, even specifically stating it is the best for every situation and purpose. The best "Vibration Training" machine ever made ? Which we all know is not true and a claim even Galileo are backing away from ( as we have heard on this forum )
My opinion is this all smacks of a salespersons site and not an independent review site at all. Or am I reading things wrong ?
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Posted On:2009-11-27 12:42:44
Mark .....
Firstly I would want to know what the injury is, because stretching does not necessarily help an injury to that area of the body. At least muscular issues. It will help with mobility in the joint though.
Having said that, the stretch you suggest is a well known one on Vibration platforms and is usually safe and effective unless there is a tear in the muscle or tendons. But not really recommended for High Energy Lineal units like you use.
If you are looking for pure stimulation to create new cells and a very controlled stretch ( to avoid unaccounted for movement ) then a squat with the heel hard down and the toes slightly raised ( thin piece of foam under toes ) will be safe and effective.
MarkPellett
Posted On:2009-11-27 06:57:19
I'm trying to get some advice on calf stretching to help a slight injury one of our clients has. We have done a calf massage which helped a bit and the normal stretch helps a bit. Philippa suggested that it might be good to stand on the machine with heels over the edge - holding onto the bar. Drop one heel till they feel a stretch and then use the other leg to stabilise to prevent any futher downward pull - then swap heels. She said to check out what you guys thought though before doing it - sound a good plan or any better ideas
Dean
Posted On:2009-11-26 21:23:43
Phillipa,
Great to be here. In Germany, they offered me some brownies, but they were not as good as those you made ;)
Regarding machines, I can only say what my body felt during exercising on them. Physics and biomechanical properties for now I will leave to Lloyd and other guys who knows more than me. In that matter I can divide (lineal) machines to three categories. In first, there is only Vibra-train, which gave me really good workout. In second I can put Vibrogym, Bodyshaker, and Hypergravity, which all felt good, but somehow less powerful than Vibra-train. In third there are almost all others (from which I described some), that I feel are capable to provide some benefit, but mostly for therapy.
Mike
Thanks. I will keep you posted. Since I spend a lot of time reading the posts on this as well as on Vibration training site, I feel like I know some of you already.
Lloyd
You already saved me a lot of money and nerves, because I was about to buy machines, that I know now, have history of breaking up on regular basis.
