Lloyd,

I am anxiously awaiting shipment of my Wave Air Reflex.  I have been reading all the great articles you have on this site...thank you for all the sharing of your knowledge. 

I was just wondering why Wave did not make your favorite list.  I went with the Wave based on your recommendation..  I was just curious about this. 

Also, you might remember my husband has spastic paraplegia...has to use a walker for balance...he doesnt stand up straight...three back surgeries also.  Should I start him on the safety program...and at what frequency.....I saw that either you or someone said alternating frequencies is not best or needed...but the Wave is set up with the built in programs to do just that...any thoughts about this....sorry cant up in qustion marks or apostraphes.  Note  my hubby has GREAT upper body strength...just  no leg or back strength.

What I was (kind of) wondering was if slightly different frequencies would hit different muscle groups slightly differently, perhaps due to the differences in overall length of a particular muscle. For example, a typical quadriceps muscle is way longer than a typical biceps or triceps muscle. Kind of like different length guitar strings making different notes when you pluck them. Maybe I am way off on the way I am trying to picture in my head just how the energy is affecting a given muscle. But if it is actually a matter of hitting a resonant frequency, I would tend to think there'd be a difference between different length muscles. Does that make sense? Of course, maybe I am all wrong and the frequency is not all that significant after all.

43hz –commenting as a user of machines (not technical)

It’s the most comfortable setting on high energy lineal machines (steel, heavy) - gives a deep intensity of muscle contraction (it hurts, its real training) yet an overall “smooth” movement.

Lower fq feels rough and uncomfortable, it just makes me not want to use the machine. Some (below 30) fq’s feel soft but make me feel tummy sick with instant headache within 30 seconds (and I am a long time user so used to the feel of machines)

 My observations are just my perception on steel machines high energy lineal, not necessarily what the machine is really doing – for example – 30hz does give training results and good muscle contraction and a study recommends it .

Safety – matching the body fq’s – spine etc. Lineal machines only - not to cause any bad effects (and I’m not sure how valid this problem really is) the lineal machine must run at 30hz or above. Do you trust some companies on this? What if the machine was not working to specs and was actually running at 27hz (into a possibly dangerous zone).

In the studio we have a good quality, medium energy lineal machine, plastic (fibreglass) platform. At 43hz is comfortable and gives a good workout even though the muscle contraction isn’t as intense as using a high energy machine.

Because the target is the girth of the muscle and positions are static I can’t see any reason to use different fq’s on lineal machines. Maybe for massage – into “fat” cells but then you get confusion when machines are used in a commercial setting.

ON PIVOTAL MACHINES

Changing the fq is needed as there’s more body movement. A push-up is done at a lower speed than a squat. A plank position also – despite what others will tell you. I use 22hz on pivotal (on a machine that works to specs) for squats and only about 8hz for push-up. I have a shoulder injury but am strong. Remember you are moving side to side. Some will manage push-up higher.

I’ve noticed that some pivotal machine marketers suggest highest fq’s (27h usually) for advanced users. Funny thing is that this mimics a lineal platform – the type of muscle contraction is shakier (in my experience) but similar to lineal. Maybe this is “the best of both worlds” but I’ve yet to be convinced to change my training to a pivotal machine.

I have seen that you tend to use 43 Hz for everything, but I am curious about something. Have you ever noticed any difference in optimal frequency (going by "feel") for different muscles or body parts? Is 43 Hz just as optimal, in your opinion, for say triceps as it might be for quadriceps? How about for calf muscles or abdominals? Has anyone ever noticed a better result at some other frequency than 43 Hz for lineal (or whatever it might be for pivotal)? Do certain positions yield greater results going by "feel" than other ones?

Not Lloyd, but that reminds me of that Crazy Fit that does not have the handles. Plastic pivotal made in China (Russia?) I imagine you don't have to worry about damage at that low a frequency, it's just a therapy unit.

Lloyd,

This is me again, sorry for delay. I placed video on YouTube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYpeO4s_pXY

This is for home use, but they have for commercial use. There is no data about frequency, but speed is from 1 to 20.

According to my simple calculation level 1 is 2Hz, level 10 is about 7 o r8Hz, level 20 should be about 10 or 12Hz

But the load is unique, because you feel balance training and vibration same time

But Im worry about low vibration damage because of resonance frequency towards human organs like brain, eyes, heart.

What do you think, guys

My regards,

Hi JM, I was the one offered an Air Reflex for 4500, I went with the Contour Plus instead. I am in the US. I believe they have since then raised the price back up to $5500 on the Air Reflex. It was MikeP on here who got that price (4500) originally. If you email Rochelle at Wave and ask her, she may offer you a discount, but I have no idea if one can be had in Australia. Yes Wave is located in Canada.

Hi Everyone

I live in Perth, WA 

Can I purchase a WAVE Air Reflex in Australia

Also where did people purchase the WAVE for 4500. Was it from Canada

Thanks

Anyone else just get a lot of emails from Josh Hayon and Hypergravity? I was under the impression he was or was nearly out of business? Instead I visited his website and it appears they have like 17 different models? (over kill much?) Has anyone had more recent experience with their products than what was related earlier?

(Oh and Lloyd, he claims to build his own motors, just FYI. Believe it?)

Ok, now you have got me thinking. I got a couple questions, because I am doing some guess work here:

How does a company like say Power Plate or Wave do the low/high amplitude settings? Is it done by having two motors and just activating one at a time, say one with a heavier weight attached to achieve higher amplitude? (Just my first guess.)

What kind(s) of motor(s) are best suited for this kind of application? DC or AC? Would something like those concrete mixer motors be usable, or is there a reason why not?

What is a good material to use for an isolator?

(Of course, anything that's a trade secret can be held back/emailed to me as preferred; notnospam@gmail.com is the address). And any other hints anyone would care to drop, fire away. Of course what I am looking at here would be lineal; I have no idea how to build a pivotal. Maybe I should take the Crazy Fit apart; it's been knocking lately on the left hand side...

Mike M

Don’t get me wrong – I was just having a little fun; you’ll soon get used to our Kiwi ways. Like Lloyd says – you have gained a huge amount of understanding in a very short time. My jest was an acknowledgment of that.

Of course I have bias toward the machines brand that I use BUT I love trying others and being able to recommend them to people who have no access to Vibra-Train.

No no no, I was not about to build one, Di you must have missed the winkie (here's another one) ;-) don't they use those in NZ?

No I was just injecting a little light hearted humor here, and then I was doing that reading I mentioned, which had the EMG graph. And I also noted (as an aside) that the Galileo which I think he rated at 16G also had comparable (I would call it, pretty equal) EMG effect to the Vibrogym. This though the platforms are really different otherwise.

My question would be, isn't EMG what it's all about, really? If you can't elicit a response from the muscle fibers, why are you bothering? And the greater response seems to come from the heavier platforms. In fact I looked at the DKN XG5 versus XG10 EMG graphs and they look very close to me - both are the same weight - not sure there's enough performance difference between the two to warrant two separate models.

I wish there were more platform tests somewhere that showed the EMG graph. ESPECIALLY on the current Wave models...

Mike M

You sound almost ready to give it a go and build your own machine so, rather laughingly; here are some tips for your weekend project:

1. Just because it vibrates, it’s probably not a valid platform for building muscle strength or even for therapy and not necessarily safe either– a washing machine lid vibrates and so does a pneumatic drill.

2. The motor force generally cannot exceed the durability of the surrounding platform – or it might explode into a million little pieces or crack in two. Have you ever had that happen to those arcoroc glass or pyrex coffee mugs we used to get? The simple vibration of the microwave killed a few of mine.  Or the motor or other component might just stop working – financial disaster in a commercial setting.

3. Vibration direction control – linear, 3D, uncontrolled – remember you are human and your body needs to be able to respond in a beneficial way. So much more than mixing concrete.

4. Lloyd Shaw uses a (currently secret, like Colonel Saunders of KFC) 9-part equation to produce his machines – don’t ask me, last time I tried I got to 4 parts. And, as he says below, “I will not release any further engineering info until the industry is in a safer place”.  

4. In my time in this industry I’ve seen some rather amusing copies of Vibra-Train brand machines or where individual components were copied quite well, and then placed incorrectly – the big hint here is, don’t try to copy, design your own, you seem quite able to.

And my biggest tip – move here to New Zealand where you come and train on the world’s best (apologises to others here, of course I am biased)

Mike M

I’ve seen a similar video that was actually for a vibration platform for human use rather than for mixing concrete

How close is that one to a commercial training platform? -  a million miles away – you go figure it (It’s like the marketers theory, that if it vibrates it’s good for training *huge laugh*)

Your comment about G Force, EMG and motors – have you read this article: http://www.vibration-training-advice.com/extra-force-better-training-results

But, being provocative here, I’ve seen it done exactly with just one motor though most of the high force machines I’ve tried have had two. 

I was nosing around the site www.vibrationtrainingdevice.com just now, and noticed something of interest. If you look at this page

http://www.vibrationtrainingdevice.com/VG-Evolution-I-Vibrogym.htm

where he reviews the Vibrogym VG Evolution whose G rating is given as 10G, then look at the blue graph EMG muscular activity that it about 2/3 of the way down the page, and then take a look at this page

http://www.vibrationtrainingdevice.com/XG10.htm

where he reviews the DKN XG10, and again look at the blue EMG graph about middle of that page, you should note that the EMG level is about half what is shown for Vibrogym, even though the DKN is rated at 12G versus 10G for the Vibrogym.

How to explain it? Well, I will note that the VG is listed as having 2 engines at 350W and the DKN as having one engine. And the weight of DKN is 141 lbs but VG is 308.

Is that the main difference? Mass of the platform and two versus one engine driving it? Why is the G force rating so similar yet the EMG result so much higher on VG? Are his measurements incorrect in some way?

Legal action? What legal action?

Hey, I was nosing around youtube today and ran across this item. Take a look and tell me what you think. How far is one of these from a commercial training platform? ;-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWImU7CCU8g

Kevin

Thank you for the links – very interesting.

I can see why you experienced back discomfort from the lineal machine; your squat is not deep enough.  On a pivotal machine this isn’t as specific until you get to higher fq.  As I said before, some studios have machines with side, vibrating handlebars designed for use by people who need that support and giving an upper body workout while in squat position (none in U.K. at present).  Philippa certainly gave you a very good start; your initial results are exciting.  It’s disappointing you can’t find sponsorship, have you approached Galileo?  In New Zealand Vibra-Train provides free therapy and training sessions, in studio, for some people who have life threatening conditions (M.D. and morbid obesity are two that come to mind). Lloyd Shaw has always done this – but only in conjunction with the client’s doctors, to show their progress over a period of time.

Dean

Thank you again for telling us of your experiences.  The PowerPlate demonstrator has now learnt why we don’t use dynamic positions on high energy, lineal platforms.  Two minutes of a basic squat (110 degrees) is much safer, feels very intense, and gives the results wanted by athletes.