Questions and discussion forum

Please read through the articles that cover your questions, or topic of conversation before posting, as understanding the basics give the community a better chance of helping you.Please Note: Most of the frequently asked questions we have had over the years have their own article already.

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Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train.Com Posted On:2009-09-22 17:41:43
Here is a funny thing....
 
The owner of HyperGravity was recently caught putting my workmanship down, then confirmed his opinion via email to me in less than flattering terms ( so this was not hear-say ). Despite the fact I had been helping him get his company known and into the commercial sector.( that's the thanks I get sometimes )  But if you check out his new "modification" to his Elite Sports Pro you will see him copying the double base system I use on all my machines for years.
 
 I am always flattered when another manufacturer copies my designs, and in fact expect all my designs to be replicated eventually as this is how any industry moves forward,  but does this now mean he likes my work ?  
 
Di Heap Posted On:2009-09-22 14:50:05

Oh Yeah, we are so mean and nasty!  Really?  Judge for yourself.   I just had a lady come into the studio, (she was going door to door of businesses), asking for a donation to help with the next Para-Olympics.  Better than a donation, she got a lesson on what Vibration Training on high quality machines can do for people with disabilities.  I also told her that many of the people who would compete in para-olympics would be eligible to use our studio for free, no-charge, zilch!  That’s a service we provide, not for every disability but for life-threatening and severe permanent conditions. 

The people we are “nasty” to are the ones who risk people’s health/fitness by not knowing what they are doing and not wanting to learn; the people who are in this industry only to make money (also no real concern for the customers); the people who think they are above taking advice from others who have done the “hard yards” before them; manufacturers and sellers of low quality machines who pass them off as the best and charge top prices instead of being honest; and others of similar ilk.

 
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train.Com Posted On:2009-09-21 16:05:36
I has been relayed to me we are a "nasty bunch" on this forum. I suspect this is because we do not keep silent on certain issues "marketers" and "business people" do not want discussed. 
 
Sorry to upset the apple cart, but I am afraid things like ethics and safety will be discussed here, out in the open like they should be, so the consumer can be aware of them and judge the behavior for themselves.
 
Please Note: The reason this forum now exists is the last one tried to censor topics relating to negative aspects of our industry. Anyone is welcome to come on and defend their actions if they feel we have gotten things wrong. So far history has shown us those in the wrong never front up to answer questions. 
 
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train.Com Posted On:2009-09-21 01:02:10

We are getting to #1 as fast as possible. Takes allot of work and time. So unfortunately the only outside visits we have gotten to date are those I invite to attack us. Just for the sport of it Smile emoticon 

Josh ...

Well here is something you might be able to do to help the industry. Some customers of HyperGravity in the U.K. are going to get lessons off Power Plate. Again showing me they have zero understanding of the difference in products. Power Plates best unit is about a 3rd as powerful as the model they have. So what they learn will not necessarily transfer to safe usage on their units. and you KNOW Power Plate will not tell them there is a difference.( They still tell people all vibration is the same ) . I hope you see the danger in this and can do something. 

I have sent them a message, but they are better than all of us here apparently, so to date have shown us no respect. 

  

 
Di Heap Posted On:2009-09-20 22:46:15

Hey Keith and welcome.  We’ve said it before.  Just wait till we get the All Blacks training on our Vibra-Train machines; we’ll conquer the world!  We’re working on getting this site up top in the Google ratings.  It takes click-through from other sites and more but we’re getting there fast!

 
Keith Proctor Posted On:2009-09-20 20:46:52

Hi Guys

Ive been following the advice freely given by Lloyd Shaw on training and which machine to purchase and have been going for 2 years now on vibration training having given up the sweaty Virgin gym machines a year ago.

I value also the advice and opinions of others who contribute to this site like Mike Hair Di Heap et al. I have assisted friends with back problems following advice received from Lloyd and in one case avoided a back operation to one of my employees.

So the suggestion is to make sure you have the qualifications before calling Lloyd an idiot.

Sorry about the Tri Nations Mike and not a word about athletics SA please.

Are there any other search terms besides vibration training advice to use on google to get this site more recognised. I had to get here through Lloyds site.

 
MikeHair Posted On:2009-09-19 15:16:47
It's funny how time has a way of dealing too greedy underhanded people.
I have noticed quite a few people come and go over the last 4 years in the VT industry, mostly because they had the wrong motive, now I know you get into business to make money and succeed, but if that is your only motive then you will fail!
 
In this industry you are taking money from the public and they are trusting that you know what you are doing, so if you are not passionate about there health and safety every time they walk through you're door, you won't have them as a customer for long.
 
What confuses me the most is that not many people communicate before they open a studio. I fully understand the "don't talk to the competition" but if I had not picked up the phone and called Lloyd from Vibra-train I would not be in business today.
 
I was competition to Vibra-train, but had no other option, we had only been open for about 3 months and our machines started to break. Speaking with Lloyd helped us to keep our doors open, Lloyd was not only honest but has done everything within his power to help us, because of this we are now in our 4th year of operation, were as, all they other companies that have started in a underhanded way and refused to follow a safety program or communicate have disappeared.
 
This does not have to be a "we are better than them industry" there is enough room for everybody, all it takes is to be honest, upfront and communicate. 
 
If you are struggling just pick up the phone and talk with someone who has been around awhile, you may be surprised by the help you receive.
 
 
 
  
 
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train.Com Posted On:2009-09-19 13:49:10
Well I have seen it all before, so I am not surprised, but always disappointed. A studio that has recently opened in the U.K.  someone that chose to act underhanded and sneaky, and when we asked why that was needed, they just said, "that's just business , get over it "  is following the exact pattern of behavior we have seen in N.Z., when greed is the only motive to get involved in the industry. These people are always marketing types, always looking for the next get rich quick scheme. 
 
This is the pattern I have now seen my competition take ......   
 
(a)  Opens studio with some skullduggery or secrecy involved. They always think this makes them clever somehow, but in reality it just makes them look dodgy. People who are really confident at what they do, hide nothing.
 
(b)  Starts putting down the competition straight away, even though that's where they got the idea of entering the industry in the first place from, and everyone around them knows it. Even those closest to them find it kinda underhanded, but they say nothing. I always find this hilarious, because this bluff never works and only makes them look scared.
 
(c) They become instant experts.  Usually by reading other peoples material, the same ones they have no respect for now.
 
(d) As any marketer does they put massive effort into getting people in the door, any trick will do. They are quite often very good at this.   
 
(e) Once in the door though, they show zero interest in safe training methods and actually damage the industry they have just entered. But as the money going through the till is their ONLY indication of success they simply don't care.
 
 
They will eventually close after the honeymoon period is over, and their customers get sick of the BS marketing with no substance. As you can not fake passion for this industry for long, the customers do pick up on in eventually, and will leave.
 
Now if you think I am exaggerating or making this up, I will actually list the businesses that decided to 'Go into competition " with me with some, or all of the above attitude. Some even openly stated when they launched they would "crush me" ( how neighborly )  You can research this for yourself to find out if they are still around...... 
 
Power Plate
Vibra-Gym
Nemes
Vibex
Elite-Fitness/Rocket Fitness
Peak-Vibe
Vibra-Fit
 
 
I could tell you a story about each of them that would make you say, Oh that's not very nice". But the guts of it is if they had spent half their time making friends, instead of having meetings with lawyers , franchise gurus and "wealth creators" ( greed creators )  etc...  they would have found that not everybody operates like "Dog eat Dog " And other problems they have had could have been sorted out. As my company has expanded ( so the market share is there ) they have shrunken, disappeared altogether or are stuck going nowhere.
 
Learn from others mistakes or be doomed to repeat them.     
 
PhilippaChurch Posted On:2009-09-18 20:50:50

Thanks.  Have someone coming to train from Croatia who is setting up a studio there next week  and was just thinking if there were any other options in terms of machines other than Vibra train, BodyShaker, Vibrogym and we are also visiting a Hypergravity so he can see it although it is not one I will be recommending.  Do we know how the Evolution has fared in commercial settings its the only one other than Vibratrain and HG that has the capacity to fine tune frequency.

 
LloydShaw Posted On:2009-09-18 15:40:43
DKN have moved forward quite nicely into Medium Energy Lineal steel units. Not quite up to the level we are used to, but better than what's on offer in most countries.  Time will tell how well they do in a busy studio/gym environment. As the industry has learnt, lots of companies like Power Plate and HyperGravity have claimed "true" commercial toughness, only to see them fall apart under pressure.
 
I would personally like to see a machine run the length of its warranty, being hammered every day, before I made a judgment call.          
 
MikeHair Posted On:2009-09-18 11:36:46

Hi Philippa.

I think the dkn falls into medium to low speed lineal. Not suitable for a studio as the results would be limited, and i dont think the machine would stand up to the abuse a busy studio would throw at it.

most likely good for a physio practice.

I see what you mean about the punctuation.

 
PhilippaChurch Posted On:2009-09-18 08:58:44

Has anyone had experience of DKN.  We dont have them at all here in UK.  Am wondering what they compare to,  particularly their pro model.  Would they be an option for a studio

 BTW..... I cant seem to get various punctuation typing in here such as question marks.

 
PhilippaChurch Posted On:2009-09-16 19:05:08

Thanks Di  will keep you updated. 

 
Di Heap Posted On:2009-09-16 08:53:58

Favouring one side can be from a knee problem but could also be an imbalance in or lack of core strength.  If so, using the Safety Program and ensuring the customer never veers from the order of positions soon corrects this.  I love seeing the changes customers get within a few weeks.

Philippa, does your client have any long-term swelling above the knee?  I was also unable to do a quad stretch for past year and found the basic squat do-able but difficult.  My only “treatment” this year has been vibration training.  Scar tissue from injury or surgery impairs movement and again Vibration Training/Therapy helps break this up.  As he is slowly improving I’d encourage him to continue and it would be good to also get a current diagnosis, could be it will show the improvements and give him peace of mind.

 
DanPelletier Posted On:2009-09-15 12:32:59

Hey  everyone, while were on the topic of knees, we have the same issues with a small percent of our current clients using the safety program.  I have always questioned fatique vrs joint issue expecially when we have ensured pose is being held correctly.  My knees thank goodness are just fine and have never caused me any issues but Deb has and we have caught people favouring the stronger side not only during vibration training but in day to day activities as well.

This favouring, could this be causing irritation and what about tension during use, are they relaxing or could nerves be bringing on unwanted tension while there holding the pose.

 
Philippa Church Posted On:2009-09-14 00:20:19

How rude - you whippersnappers in New Zealand have no idea how to conduct yourselves - but what can you expect from a country that's barely been here for a century!

Re the knee - This is the problem  though if he comes down to 110 degress he feels intense pain in the knee - even using the bars as support - surely that can't be good  - I understand that 110 is the angle whereby all strain is taken out f the knee - but not for him. 

 
Lloyd Posted On:2009-09-13 23:46:25
Philippa.... There are 2 types of Poms ...
 
(a)  The whingers ....  " Oh aye , I ain't got nowt  but a cup of cha , and Stan the Man just ran off with me airdresser  "
 
(b)  The stoics ...    " Yes I understand everybody's dead,  and yes I am pretty jolly upset about it "
 
Lloyd Shaw Posted On:2009-09-13 23:38:49

If he feels better after training then that is a good sign. If it was causing actual damage it would be similar to any other sports injury, Immediate pain that does not go away.

It sounds like its irritating exposed nerves, which is something that may never go away.  You do really need to get him down to 110 degrees somehow though, this reduces wear on the remaining cartilage and gives it a chance to reform in the correct shape. 

 
Philippa Church Posted On:2009-09-13 21:27:15

The pain is actually in the knee itself. He never does super squats - always uses handle bars. He has been coming for nearly a year and so is quite strong now (has become a lot slimmer as well as improving knees which is a bonus!)  It is not the training that causes the pain - often he come in pain and feels much better after training.  He has never been clear about what the op was for - think it sounds like it removed cartilige.   He is unable to do a quad stretch - not on the machine I hasten to add -  where you bring the foot up to the buttock behind you - so maybe some sort of  tightness in ligaments/ tendons etc.  Hard to get much else as he doesn't know  and doesn't seem keen on geting a more accurate diagnosis, (remember that conversation we had Lloyd about the British never giving away much information...)  Think maybe we just carry on doing what we're doing - just wondered if there's anything else we can do. 

 
Lloyd Shaw Posted On:2009-09-13 18:48:07

Philippa...

First off does it hurt his joints, or his muscles just above his knees. Just need to clarify its not just fatigue. A good indication of this is, if it stops as soon as the machine stops, its just fatigue. Joint damage would leave him in pain after and even while walking away from the machine.

As for side supports , you may be able to get something like a Tri-Cep Dip stand for people to use if really needed. They wont vibrate of course, but should do the trick. 

 
Di Heap Posted On:2009-09-13 16:49:07

Philippa,  

Is it the current pain that is undiagnosed?   What were the op’s for?  It certainly sounds like your client is benefitting from Vibration Training.  I know you are using the safety program,  http://www.vibra-train.com/exercises-bullet.html  , so he should do basic squat instead of super-squat at the end i.e. using the bullets handlebars for support and check his knee position is not too far forward.  Also that his knees are aligned over his feet, not bow-legged or inward, but you know all this.

The pain I felt during squat positions was more of awareness, warmth feeling but not pleasant.  It is important for him to take rests between positions to allow fatigued muscles to recover.  Also, to rest at the end of the session, before leaving the studio.  It’s that time when legs can feel a bit like jelly that my knee would “catch”.  I can only tell of my experience and your client may have a different condition.  I'll leave Lloyd to answer most of your questions. 

 
Philippa Church Posted On:2009-09-12 22:48:26

Hi Di

Can you give some more advice on people with knee pain.  Our machines don't have the side handle bars (Would be great if we did...!!!)  So, I have one client in particular with dreadful knees - has had lots of ops - never really been diagnosed. VT has really helped and he has gone from taking 8 painkillers a day to none but he still has slip backs .   When he goes very low into a squats it causes pain. His knee angle is probably about 115-129o - usinf the handles of bullet to take weight (pulling down not back)  He says it feels like the knee is being cut in two.    Are there any other exercises we can add in or what else can we do?  It is really helping but feel we maybe can do more.  What can  we whho haven''t got side bars do when adopting the 110 degree angle with weight in heels causes their knees to hurt? 

 
Di Heap Posted On:2009-09-12 21:30:24

Peter Wills

<quote> “I was searching for advice since I went to a session and my knee is killing me today and thinkin' this ain't for moi at all.” </quote>

Do you have a knee injury?  Did you advise the Instructor? More information about the machine you used and the positions you did?  But, I can relate to your knee hurting.  I injured my knee (cartilage tear) running.  Conservative therapies did not help much and when I started at Vibra-Train 3yrs later I could not jog without my knee locking or giving way. 

I used a machine that has side handlebars for extra support in squat positions.  At first my knee hurt during sessions.  Sometimes ached afterwards but by next day my knee did not “lock” or give-way so I continued.  I ran again too soon.  The meniscus tear opened, worse this time.

Going back to Vibra-Train I was taken off the program and did a series of simple squats instead.  Within 2 weeks (6 sessions) I was walking without pain, moved to the full program and got my knee right again, slower this time.  I’m not going to say it’s perfectly healed as cartilage heals slowly and it’s untried but I have no pain, no giving way and I proved first time that rest, massage, meds was not enough.  Please let us advise you.

 

 
Lloyd Shaw Posted On:2009-09-12 14:57:01
Yes got to love the self promoting rubbish such as the " Professor" title, and this ..
 
The information made available on Fitness Professor Review.com© is based on the extensive experience and knowledge of our Review Board.
 
One even calling himself " THE health and fitness trainer" and the other " been involved in the development and fabrication of everything from safety railings to executive helicopters "  I worked on helicopters and for this guy to not fundamentally understand the truly different physics based levels of vibration, and how they effect humans, even before he has seen a machine, is just scary. 
 
But then apparently they let themselves off the hook from such poor work by having a disclaimer telling people to ask their health care professional what machine they should buy ? Since when has any health care pro had the time to review the 6 categories of machine on the market.  With the 6 category review being on the site at the top of Google globally ( vibration training ) they must have done zero research past what came from the marketers of each machine.
 
The fact is by calling themselves "unbiased experts" they are telling people to trust them, and most people will follow their advice. Not cool.         
 
Mike Hair Posted On:2009-09-12 12:52:46

Just read the review by the professor, what a dangerous idiot. It is excactly this type of marketing bullshit that cost me over $30k and the last 4 years of my life trying to repay it. He has no idea how this type of review can hurt someone.

Thank God for this site, where the consumer can find out how not to get ripped off!!

 
Lloyd Shaw Posted On:2009-09-12 09:52:17

Peter......

Like any form of exercise, it can sometimes irritate old injuries, just like running, doing weights or even Physio etc.... But you also need to make sure you follow good advice, starting with the safety program. But seeing as you have gone looking for advice "after" you used a machine, it was a bit late to help you. I can not speak for other systems, but we have not had one ACC claim in the 5 years of operation, IN THE WHOLE COUNTRY.  With about a quarter of our customers ( in my studio at least ) being elderly or having quite severe previous injuries, that would prove beyond a doubt to any reasonable person, this form of training is safe if done properly.

Philippa....

None of these guys will come on and name a place, machine or give specifics, it was an ambush because I called their "professor" mate a fake. We have all seen it before, its predictable and they all say exactly the same thing and the attacks follow the same pattern. Funny as hell for those of us who have been doing this a while. It just gives us a chance to show the world how feeble their arguments are.  

 
John Weatherly Posted On:2009-09-12 04:27:12

Dave and Booge,

Have you guys read even the abstract of a study by Ness et al. out of the U of Miami (Gait Posture. July 31,2009) that showed improved walking ability in patients with incomplete spinal cord injuries after a month of three times a week vibration treatments?  This pilot study involved the Miami Project to Cure Paralysis, the medical school at the U of Miami, and the department of bioengineering at the U of Miami.  It's available at www.nlm.nih.gov, click on PubMed, and type in vibration training or vibration exercise as search terms. 

To me, something that may benefit people being able to walk, is not "garbage."  The U of Miami and The Project to Cure Paralysis must not think vibration is garbage. 

 
Philippa Church Posted On:2009-09-12 02:52:20


Hi Peter

Sounds like you might have gone to a Dave and Boogie style studio - where on poor amchines witha dodgy programme you may well end up in pain.  Virtually all out customers ee a huge improvement with knee and back problems and the for the few who don't it certainly doesn't make it worse - maybe you could share with us where you went so other people can know not to go there .  Be inteested to see if you do.  I f you find somewhere who follows the Safety programme you should see an improvement. 

Thanks  judithlloyd           14

 

 

 
Peter Wills Posted On:2009-09-12 02:04:04

Actually Lloyd if you google "vibration training advice" like I did...you are 3rd.... so search engines found you, not too many else but the search engines find everyone. I was searching for advice since I went to a session and my knee is killing me today and thinkin' this ain't for moi at all. Good luck!

 
Lloyd Shaw Posted On:2009-09-12 01:03:17

Philippa.

Within 20 mins of me sending this link to the pretend  "professor" we get attacked. And considering we are not showing up on search engines yet you add 1+1 together.

These guys are as fake as it gets. Typical of the kind of people who rely solely on other peoples inventions to get through life, with zero appreciation of how they get developed. Makes me sick.

Anyway on to more important points now we have a new site up.

Ok it been about 12 months now since we last listed the negative impact some marketing and safety practices or lack there of have on our industry. Some of them were only semantic arguments and only time would tell if we were wrong or right. So here is a list of 4 of the biggest issues we have discussed in the past 4 years,  lets see if we were spot on or just being drama queens...
 
 
(1)  Cheap copies ruining the market ...............
 
These include everything from supposed premium products with mass marketing like Power Plate to cheap $40 machines from China.
 
Verdict..............WE WERE SPOT ON.
 
The overwhelming feedback we get from consumers is these things are little more than toe ticklers made to look flash. Leaching off the potential of real Vibration Training units. This has damaged the market in a number of ways.
 
(a) Lots of disappointed people from athletes to beginners.  I have witness this myself with people unwilling to even try a real machines saying to my face  "  I have tried it and it did nothing" . I usually manage to get them to try 1 minute on a Training unit and they change their opinion really fast.  But we are only going to ever get to a fraction of those people. Some we have lost forever.
 
(b) Those unfortunate enough to buy one feel ripped of, and they hold it against all of us.  As we are still seen as one industry. This is made even worse by companies telling people all machines are the same, only the price is different.  This has also though come back and bitten the worse perpetrators. Eg.. Power Plate figures have dropped due to people buying cheaper copies of their unit. Their own advertising of saying " it's all the same" only worked for them when they were selling the cheapest unit in the market. Now they are mid-priced it works against them. If they had defined the different levels of Vibration Training/Therapy from day one and categorized themselves honestly they would not be in that situation.
 
 
Note;  And no I do not believe the money they spend on marketing and hence consumer awareness cancels out the damage they do. Only a marketer would think that.
 
 
(2)  Incorrect Fq were going to hurt people..........
 
Verdict .......... WE WERE WRONG   .( to date anyway )
 
 
Both Lineal and Pivotal seem to have "gray areas"  were the body seems to work slightly out of time with the Fq used. We have yet to all agree with the exact fqs that cause chaos with our equilibrium and some were said to match our natural resonance of certain internal organs, it was discussed and I for one told people to avoid these Fq   5hz -- 30hz  on Lineal machines.  Thinking it would be better to be safe than sorry.  I worked off ISO regulations from Armed Forces tests from 3 countries , but seeing as we are not driving a tank or operating a machine gun during our Vibration Training session , no civilian casualties have been reported. I do get the odd blond getting confused about the program but I think that might be caused by something else.   
 
 Power Plate went further than me and told people their eyeballs would blow up if they got on an un-calibrated machine. and theirs by coincidence was the only safe unit in the world,  which was extremely funny considering their own track record , but a scary tactics it was. I hurt myself laughing.
 
 But the fact is that after 5 years of people getting on machines with various Fq that are all over the place no one has even gotten sick from using these " in between resonance Fq "  In Asia they do the opposite from us and recommend those Fq because they say it "stimulates" your body.
 
The reality......... is the worst reports we get is people getting dizzy for a while afterwards or generally feeling very uncomfortable. Not exactly news worthy even though this is enough for people not to want to try it again. So it will do your business damage by scaring people off but at least you did not hurt anybody.
 
 
(3)  Un-calibrated cheap machines being used in tests......
 
 
Verdict....   WE WERE SPOT ON
 
Our objection and prediction of this is so well documented it is undeniable to everyone in our industry.  This was our prediction in this order.
 
(a)  Cheap machines "gifted" to academics as a short term marketing ploy. Just so companies can say " our unit is being used in tests" at so-and-so University by Dr so-and-so .
(b)  About halfway through the tests the academics would figure out something is wrong/missing , as most of them are basically plagiarizing tests already done overseas ( done on real machines ) so already predicted the outcome.
(c) The self centered and grant hungry academics would do nothing to warn the consumer ( because that's not their job apparently )
(d) Countless reports releasing details of their failure to prove anything. 
 
We had Academics coming on this site and emailing me to say we were wrong , but what have we witnesses, cover up after cover up.  We are now getting our critics using these " doomed to fail " tests against us.
 
 
 Cheap copies being used in serious research was always going to hurt the industry in a very deep and long term way. It is almost the ultimate sin against our industry , and only done by parties who do not care if it ruins Vibration Trainings potential to help people. They are marketers or researchers who will just go do something else after the damage is done.
 
 
(4)  General overuse will cause hyperthyroidism and other hormonal disorders .....
 
 
Verdict...........  WE WERE WRONG
 
It would suggest now the potential is still there as we have seen cases of over exposure in some very obsessed individuals. But it would seem the body has built in mechanisms to stop this from happening to most of us, namely you just get really tired and cant be bothered doing a session. During my initial tests with a group of trainers no one made it past 10 days straight on the safety program before they found it too hard to get out of bed or got symptoms like the flu.
 
Now this should not be taken as a reason to not set limits and stick to them, as we are still dealing with a massive amount of stimulation and a powerful tool that should not be abused ,  but it seems you can do a few days in a row and you will not blow up like a balloon with fluid and turn into the opposite sex.
 
                           

 

 
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