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Please read through the articles that cover your questions, or topic of conversation before posting, as understanding the basics give the community a better chance of helping you.Please Note: Most of the frequently asked questions we have had over the years have their own article already.

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Lloyd Posted On:2009-09-13 23:46:25
Philippa.... There are 2 types of Poms ...
(a)  The whingers ....  " Oh aye , I ain't got nowt  but a cup of cha , and Stan the Man just ran off with me airdresser  "
(b)  The stoics ...    " Yes I understand everybody's dead,  and yes I am pretty jolly upset about it "
Lloyd Shaw Posted On:2009-09-13 23:38:49

If he feels better after training then that is a good sign. If it was causing actual damage it would be similar to any other sports injury, Immediate pain that does not go away.

It sounds like its irritating exposed nerves, which is something that may never go away.  You do really need to get him down to 110 degrees somehow though, this reduces wear on the remaining cartilage and gives it a chance to reform in the correct shape. 

Philippa Church Posted On:2009-09-13 21:27:15

The pain is actually in the knee itself. He never does super squats - always uses handle bars. He has been coming for nearly a year and so is quite strong now (has become a lot slimmer as well as improving knees which is a bonus!)  It is not the training that causes the pain - often he come in pain and feels much better after training.  He has never been clear about what the op was for - think it sounds like it removed cartilige.   He is unable to do a quad stretch - not on the machine I hasten to add -  where you bring the foot up to the buttock behind you - so maybe some sort of  tightness in ligaments/ tendons etc.  Hard to get much else as he doesn't know  and doesn't seem keen on geting a more accurate diagnosis, (remember that conversation we had Lloyd about the British never giving away much information...)  Think maybe we just carry on doing what we're doing - just wondered if there's anything else we can do. 

Lloyd Shaw Posted On:2009-09-13 18:48:07


First off does it hurt his joints, or his muscles just above his knees. Just need to clarify its not just fatigue. A good indication of this is, if it stops as soon as the machine stops, its just fatigue. Joint damage would leave him in pain after and even while walking away from the machine.

As for side supports , you may be able to get something like a Tri-Cep Dip stand for people to use if really needed. They wont vibrate of course, but should do the trick. 

Di Heap Posted On:2009-09-13 16:49:07


Is it the current pain that is undiagnosed?   What were the op’s for?  It certainly sounds like your client is benefitting from Vibration Training.  I know you are using the safety program,  , so he should do basic squat instead of super-squat at the end i.e. using the bullets handlebars for support and check his knee position is not too far forward.  Also that his knees are aligned over his feet, not bow-legged or inward, but you know all this.

The pain I felt during squat positions was more of awareness, warmth feeling but not pleasant.  It is important for him to take rests between positions to allow fatigued muscles to recover.  Also, to rest at the end of the session, before leaving the studio.  It’s that time when legs can feel a bit like jelly that my knee would “catch”.  I can only tell of my experience and your client may have a different condition.  I'll leave Lloyd to answer most of your questions. 

Philippa Church Posted On:2009-09-12 22:48:26

Hi Di

Can you give some more advice on people with knee pain.  Our machines don't have the side handle bars (Would be great if we did...!!!)  So, I have one client in particular with dreadful knees - has had lots of ops - never really been diagnosed. VT has really helped and he has gone from taking 8 painkillers a day to none but he still has slip backs .   When he goes very low into a squats it causes pain. His knee angle is probably about 115-129o - usinf the handles of bullet to take weight (pulling down not back)  He says it feels like the knee is being cut in two.    Are there any other exercises we can add in or what else can we do?  It is really helping but feel we maybe can do more.  What can  we whho haven''t got side bars do when adopting the 110 degree angle with weight in heels causes their knees to hurt? 

Di Heap Posted On:2009-09-12 21:30:24

Peter Wills

<quote> “I was searching for advice since I went to a session and my knee is killing me today and thinkin' this ain't for moi at all.” </quote>

Do you have a knee injury?  Did you advise the Instructor? More information about the machine you used and the positions you did?  But, I can relate to your knee hurting.  I injured my knee (cartilage tear) running.  Conservative therapies did not help much and when I started at Vibra-Train 3yrs later I could not jog without my knee locking or giving way. 

I used a machine that has side handlebars for extra support in squat positions.  At first my knee hurt during sessions.  Sometimes ached afterwards but by next day my knee did not “lock” or give-way so I continued.  I ran again too soon.  The meniscus tear opened, worse this time.

Going back to Vibra-Train I was taken off the program and did a series of simple squats instead.  Within 2 weeks (6 sessions) I was walking without pain, moved to the full program and got my knee right again, slower this time.  I’m not going to say it’s perfectly healed as cartilage heals slowly and it’s untried but I have no pain, no giving way and I proved first time that rest, massage, meds was not enough.  Please let us advise you.


Lloyd Shaw Posted On:2009-09-12 14:57:01
Yes got to love the self promoting rubbish such as the " Professor" title, and this ..
The information made available on Fitness Professor© is based on the extensive experience and knowledge of our Review Board.
One even calling himself " THE health and fitness trainer" and the other " been involved in the development and fabrication of everything from safety railings to executive helicopters "  I worked on helicopters and for this guy to not fundamentally understand the truly different physics based levels of vibration, and how they effect humans, even before he has seen a machine, is just scary. 
But then apparently they let themselves off the hook from such poor work by having a disclaimer telling people to ask their health care professional what machine they should buy ? Since when has any health care pro had the time to review the 6 categories of machine on the market.  With the 6 category review being on the site at the top of Google globally ( vibration training ) they must have done zero research past what came from the marketers of each machine.
The fact is by calling themselves "unbiased experts" they are telling people to trust them, and most people will follow their advice. Not cool.         
Mike Hair Posted On:2009-09-12 12:52:46

Just read the review by the professor, what a dangerous idiot. It is excactly this type of marketing bullshit that cost me over $30k and the last 4 years of my life trying to repay it. He has no idea how this type of review can hurt someone.

Thank God for this site, where the consumer can find out how not to get ripped off!!

Lloyd Shaw Posted On:2009-09-12 09:52:17


Like any form of exercise, it can sometimes irritate old injuries, just like running, doing weights or even Physio etc.... But you also need to make sure you follow good advice, starting with the safety program. But seeing as you have gone looking for advice "after" you used a machine, it was a bit late to help you. I can not speak for other systems, but we have not had one ACC claim in the 5 years of operation, IN THE WHOLE COUNTRY.  With about a quarter of our customers ( in my studio at least ) being elderly or having quite severe previous injuries, that would prove beyond a doubt to any reasonable person, this form of training is safe if done properly.


None of these guys will come on and name a place, machine or give specifics, it was an ambush because I called their "professor" mate a fake. We have all seen it before, its predictable and they all say exactly the same thing and the attacks follow the same pattern. Funny as hell for those of us who have been doing this a while. It just gives us a chance to show the world how feeble their arguments are.  

John Weatherly Posted On:2009-09-12 04:27:12

Dave and Booge,

Have you guys read even the abstract of a study by Ness et al. out of the U of Miami (Gait Posture. July 31,2009) that showed improved walking ability in patients with incomplete spinal cord injuries after a month of three times a week vibration treatments?  This pilot study involved the Miami Project to Cure Paralysis, the medical school at the U of Miami, and the department of bioengineering at the U of Miami.  It's available at, click on PubMed, and type in vibration training or vibration exercise as search terms. 

To me, something that may benefit people being able to walk, is not "garbage."  The U of Miami and The Project to Cure Paralysis must not think vibration is garbage. 

Philippa Church Posted On:2009-09-12 02:52:20

Hi Peter

Sounds like you might have gone to a Dave and Boogie style studio - where on poor amchines witha dodgy programme you may well end up in pain.  Virtually all out customers ee a huge improvement with knee and back problems and the for the few who don't it certainly doesn't make it worse - maybe you could share with us where you went so other people can know not to go there .  Be inteested to see if you do.  I f you find somewhere who follows the Safety programme you should see an improvement. 

Thanks  judithlloyd           14



Peter Wills Posted On:2009-09-12 02:04:04

Actually Lloyd if you google "vibration training advice" like I are 3rd.... so search engines found you, not too many else but the search engines find everyone. I was searching for advice since I went to a session and my knee is killing me today and thinkin' this ain't for moi at all. Good luck!

Lloyd Shaw Posted On:2009-09-12 01:03:17


Within 20 mins of me sending this link to the pretend  "professor" we get attacked. And considering we are not showing up on search engines yet you add 1+1 together.

These guys are as fake as it gets. Typical of the kind of people who rely solely on other peoples inventions to get through life, with zero appreciation of how they get developed. Makes me sick.

Anyway on to more important points now we have a new site up.

Ok it been about 12 months now since we last listed the negative impact some marketing and safety practices or lack there of have on our industry. Some of them were only semantic arguments and only time would tell if we were wrong or right. So here is a list of 4 of the biggest issues we have discussed in the past 4 years,  lets see if we were spot on or just being drama queens...
(1)  Cheap copies ruining the market ...............
These include everything from supposed premium products with mass marketing like Power Plate to cheap $40 machines from China.
Verdict..............WE WERE SPOT ON.
The overwhelming feedback we get from consumers is these things are little more than toe ticklers made to look flash. Leaching off the potential of real Vibration Training units. This has damaged the market in a number of ways.
(a) Lots of disappointed people from athletes to beginners.  I have witness this myself with people unwilling to even try a real machines saying to my face  "  I have tried it and it did nothing" . I usually manage to get them to try 1 minute on a Training unit and they change their opinion really fast.  But we are only going to ever get to a fraction of those people. Some we have lost forever.
(b) Those unfortunate enough to buy one feel ripped of, and they hold it against all of us.  As we are still seen as one industry. This is made even worse by companies telling people all machines are the same, only the price is different.  This has also though come back and bitten the worse perpetrators. Eg.. Power Plate figures have dropped due to people buying cheaper copies of their unit. Their own advertising of saying " it's all the same" only worked for them when they were selling the cheapest unit in the market. Now they are mid-priced it works against them. If they had defined the different levels of Vibration Training/Therapy from day one and categorized themselves honestly they would not be in that situation.
Note;  And no I do not believe the money they spend on marketing and hence consumer awareness cancels out the damage they do. Only a marketer would think that.
(2)  Incorrect Fq were going to hurt people..........
Verdict .......... WE WERE WRONG   .( to date anyway )
Both Lineal and Pivotal seem to have "gray areas"  were the body seems to work slightly out of time with the Fq used. We have yet to all agree with the exact fqs that cause chaos with our equilibrium and some were said to match our natural resonance of certain internal organs, it was discussed and I for one told people to avoid these Fq   5hz -- 30hz  on Lineal machines.  Thinking it would be better to be safe than sorry.  I worked off ISO regulations from Armed Forces tests from 3 countries , but seeing as we are not driving a tank or operating a machine gun during our Vibration Training session , no civilian casualties have been reported. I do get the odd blond getting confused about the program but I think that might be caused by something else.   
 Power Plate went further than me and told people their eyeballs would blow up if they got on an un-calibrated machine. and theirs by coincidence was the only safe unit in the world,  which was extremely funny considering their own track record , but a scary tactics it was. I hurt myself laughing.
 But the fact is that after 5 years of people getting on machines with various Fq that are all over the place no one has even gotten sick from using these " in between resonance Fq "  In Asia they do the opposite from us and recommend those Fq because they say it "stimulates" your body.
The reality......... is the worst reports we get is people getting dizzy for a while afterwards or generally feeling very uncomfortable. Not exactly news worthy even though this is enough for people not to want to try it again. So it will do your business damage by scaring people off but at least you did not hurt anybody.
(3)  Un-calibrated cheap machines being used in tests......
Verdict....   WE WERE SPOT ON
Our objection and prediction of this is so well documented it is undeniable to everyone in our industry.  This was our prediction in this order.
(a)  Cheap machines "gifted" to academics as a short term marketing ploy. Just so companies can say " our unit is being used in tests" at so-and-so University by Dr so-and-so .
(b)  About halfway through the tests the academics would figure out something is wrong/missing , as most of them are basically plagiarizing tests already done overseas ( done on real machines ) so already predicted the outcome.
(c) The self centered and grant hungry academics would do nothing to warn the consumer ( because that's not their job apparently )
(d) Countless reports releasing details of their failure to prove anything. 
We had Academics coming on this site and emailing me to say we were wrong , but what have we witnesses, cover up after cover up.  We are now getting our critics using these " doomed to fail " tests against us.
 Cheap copies being used in serious research was always going to hurt the industry in a very deep and long term way. It is almost the ultimate sin against our industry , and only done by parties who do not care if it ruins Vibration Trainings potential to help people. They are marketers or researchers who will just go do something else after the damage is done.
(4)  General overuse will cause hyperthyroidism and other hormonal disorders .....
Verdict...........  WE WERE WRONG
It would suggest now the potential is still there as we have seen cases of over exposure in some very obsessed individuals. But it would seem the body has built in mechanisms to stop this from happening to most of us, namely you just get really tired and cant be bothered doing a session. During my initial tests with a group of trainers no one made it past 10 days straight on the safety program before they found it too hard to get out of bed or got symptoms like the flu.
Now this should not be taken as a reason to not set limits and stick to them, as we are still dealing with a massive amount of stimulation and a powerful tool that should not be abused ,  but it seems you can do a few days in a row and you will not blow up like a balloon with fluid and turn into the opposite sex.


Philippa Church Posted On:2009-09-12 00:10:16

Dave and Boogie

Have you ever tried a high energy lineal platform?  I know without asking that the answer is undoubtedly a resounding 'No'.  If you had there is no way you would doubt the ability of Vibration Training to fatigue the muscles and thus create muscle growth.  I am wondering how your alleged 'evidence' can explain away  how we have a Britain strong man, a triathlete, a black belt kickboxer to name but a few dripping with sweat and walking home with jelly legs having done a 15 minute session with us.  Maybe you could also account for the numerous women who have dropped 2 dress sizes after a few months having done no other form of exercise or  changing their diet?

You are right in that the industry suffers from little hard evidence but I do find it astounding that the people who see to wish to throw stones at what we do have NEVER actually tried it properly.  Without doing so you are talking from total ignorance - at least have the integrity and the guts to actually try the thing you are claiming to know so much about (in a proper studio with decent machines) and then you might actually be worth listening to. 

Lloyd Posted On:2009-09-11 21:29:38
Hey guys , could you please follow this advice before making comments, it's no fun repeating yourself and a few of your comments suggest you have failed to make the effort asked of you......
Please read through the articles that cover your questions, or topic of conversation before posting, as understanding the basics give the community a better chance of helping you. Please Note: Most of the frequently asked questions we have had over the years have their own article already.
Lloyd Posted On:2009-09-11 21:20:28

Some Lineal companies can only increase the force through higher Fqs and Amplitude. This is in my opinion unsafe for a majority of the population. 


Lloyd Shaw Posted On:2009-09-11 21:15:36

T.Langley, Reading ...


I agree with everything you just said. Except you are a bit confused on the Fq idea, it only plays a part in safety with Pivotal units. Its the force generated in Lineal thats the issue. Only marketers limit things to Fq or Amplitude as thats cheap to create.  

If you read the review section it might help you see through the marketing bull.

Lloyd Shaw Posted On:2009-09-11 21:06:10

Dave Paul..

A good point but an old one, I did the ISO 2631 safety limits in 2003. So your Dr mates are a bit behind the 8 ball.  In fact the safety program was developed around those recommendation. And they come well under workspace occupational exposure.

Note: I was the first industry person to bring it up and show concern for unrestricted use of these machine, and incorrect postures. Other industry people told me to shut up about it.  

So far , just like your study suggests it is ok to mention concern and recommend further study, that is an academics job. But so far not one study has actually shown damage and a decades commercial use on a large population, some with medical issues, would suggest even I was too cautious.  

Important note: Every position and method done on that study is banned by most responsible companies Eg  Dynamic and lock legged poses. Just to be on the safe side. So to suggest we are being unsafe is kinda funny. I would suggest the study itself was unsafe and unethical and I would not have allowed it.  

T.Langley, Reading Posted On:2009-09-11 20:52:46

I agree with Dave in Chicago, we studied the machines for our chain of assisted living homes here in the U.K and ran across this study. We actually called Abercromby and discussed the benefit. The only reason we considered the machines was because my nephew was selling them as a sales rep. Not anymore though. The findings were that they can at lower Hz (cheaper machines) encourage bone density and blood flow but no other benefits. The higher Hz machines were to not even consider.

So we decided not to and invested in regular fitness machines with were easier to fix. Another downside to these things was the inability to get them properly serviced.

Dave Paul, in Chicago Posted On:2009-09-11 20:33:00

Certainly, research done by doctors and not personal trainers with websites.... sure here you go. We helped with the supply of the machines for this experiment.

Lloyd Shaw Posted On:2009-09-11 20:01:18


The fact you just got a masage belt and Vibration training mixed up, or you think a $200 Vibration Therapy machine from Asia is what we use, means you are an idiot with zero logic and knowledge.

And making up scaremongering bullshit like " it causes brain damage "  has all been said before,you are a bit slow on that one. Its all been proven wrong over time. But thanks for showing the readers their are still cavemen around and about willing to spread their "opinions".

Note: If you want to stand by your statements, put your real name up, not some cowardly made up name. Posted On:2009-09-11 19:31:26

Vibration training is garbage. It's like those straps that rubbed your belly in the 60's a passing fad. Don't fall for this garbage. I was in Taiwan and it costs about $200 to make one. The British journal of medicine has proof that it can cause ligament damage to the knees (duh) and even brain damage. You want to get fit? Cardio workouts, another (duh)

Lloyd Shaw Posted On:2009-09-11 19:24:31

Gotta love this review of the My3  ...

" Power Plate is by far the most recognized and popular vibration trainer on the market.   With quality components, aesthetically pleasing designs and major health club experience, their home models are solid performers. "

They are talking about the same company that had to move their factories out of China because the quality was so bad . Meanwhile telling the consumer they were built in Europe ?  THE worst reputation in the industry for just about every unethical thing you can think of.

They seem to actually give them points for putting all their money into its bullshit marketing and none into the product.  

Lloyd Shaw Posted On:2009-09-11 18:51:27

I recently read a "review" of Vibration Training products on this site... 

I was dismayed to see a so called "professor" not even bother to categorize machines, but instead promote the notion that all a Vibration Training platform has to do to qualify for purchase is to vibrate. Now I know someone so "educated" can not be that stupid, so I emailed D.McCormick - Founder of asking him why such the lazy attitude towards this technology and our industry, only to be accused of having ulterior motives for my complaint. One read of our review ( which I sent him ) and they would have seen how useless theirs was in protecting the consumer from the most common lies told . But no, its everyone else's fault.

But it gets better, how about this for an excuse for such a lack of useful information........ 

" However much like other product categories, there are certain features or technologies which have a propensity to exacerbate the confusion many consumers feel when considering products. Therefore, they are not directly addressed in the review and instead should be discussed during the sales process.
They do a so called review, without even touching on how a consumer can get ripped off, and say the consumer should just trust a salesperson at the point of sale. Even though he states they will probably try to confuse you, lie or omit the facts  ???

A "professor" who is clearly adverse to doing any homework. I will say again, these pretenders have no business even commenting on our industry and are in fact as dangerous to our industry as the marketers we fight against every day. 




Rachel Posted On:2009-09-09 08:05:44
Thanks Lloyd
Lloyd Shaw Posted On:2009-09-09 06:55:38
No they can not substitute for weight bearing side bars. You need to get a "walker" or another frame made up to do the job.
Rachel Posted On:2009-09-08 23:20:01
Thanks Lloyd No good for us then as the machines have handle bars at the front (if you are standing face towards the machine). I assuming these won't take any pressure off pose?
Lloyd Shaw Posted On:2009-09-08 20:21:41

Knee, hip replacements etc... are all ok to use with the machine unless they are damaged of course. But they can only do "assisted" poses for legs. That means they use side handle bars ( or some other side supports ) to take the "pressure" out of the pose. Note: The speed or amplitude has nothing to do with this. It is the entire body weight you do not want behind the pose.

Rachel Bishop Posted On:2009-09-08 19:10:15
Lloyd Please could you provide any guidance with individuals who have either a knee/hip replacement/operation. Both guys who are interested have mentioned Titanium. We have not taken on anyone with metal plates in hip / knee area but these 2 guys have been told vibration training is OK? Thanks Rachel
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