Questions and discussion forum

Please read through the articles that cover your questions, or topic of conversation before posting, as understanding the basics give the community a better chance of helping you.Please Note: Most of the frequently asked questions we have had over the years have their own article already.

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funny this website gives "advice" Posted On:2012-03-29 12:36:31

this information is wrong... you cannot regenerate muscle fiber...  aka muscle cell.  in fact it is why after age 30, sarcopenia sets in and you can slow it by exercise but you cannot stop it entirely.  Bulky muscles are merely an increase in muscle SIZE  ... the fiber itself, not an actual regeneration of muscle cells.  they do NOT replicate as this person states... who actually called others "ignorant".  In fact the lack of skeletal mucscle regeneration ability is a well known fact taught in bio 101.

abcde Posted On:2012-03-28 22:37:23

You think 4477 posts will be missed.

Lloyd Shaw Posted On:2012-03-28 20:25:39
Time to effect more change peoples.....
Dear Dealfind,
                   by now you will be aware of a multiple comments Consumer Truth Bomb on the latest DZT sale.
Because you are continuing to facilitate DZT in selling Vibration Training machines with fake specifications, ( after you were made aware of this issue in the last sale as per all the deleted posts on the subject) . I am taking the campaign up a notch. 
Over the next few weeks. Random comments demanding Dealfind refund all Dealfind customers who have been scammed over the last few deals with DZT will be posted. On multiple sales ( not related to DZT )
Please note:  The subject is serious because people with various health issues, such as weight loss and certain disabilities, including the elderly, have been effected.
I will contact you after the Consumer Truth Bomb has finished and see what effect it has had on your ethics / bottom line / reputation . I will also be sending emails to all the "news" sources you claim have mentioned you,  outlining our plan, hoping at least one picks up on the story. 
It is the first time a consumer advocate group had done this, so it will be interesting to see what outcome we can effect. Wish us luck.  
Di Heap/VibePlus Posted On:2012-03-28 17:50:41


Read this article:


Di Heap/VibePlus Posted On:2012-03-28 17:46:13

Jillie, it depends on what results you want and a few other factors.  Crazyfit is on the BlackList because they attach fake specs to the machines (be careful – there are many brands of identical machine and all are apparently the new model).  They also claim results that simply cannot happen using that machine – muscle build etc. The adverts and infomercials show people with amazing bodies and say you can look like that too. 

Crazyfit  machines don’t work well if a persons weighs  over 60kg (130lbs) – they can’t cope with even regular weight.

They do have some  use. They are quite gentle. They increase blood circulation and can help with improving bone density. They help with relaxation, reducing stress. They might even help you sleep better.  They might help decrease aches and pains by activating muscle and joint mobility.

I hope this helps you decide if it will work for you until you get a better machine.  If you tell us where in the world you are, we can guide you further.

Jillie Posted On:2012-03-28 17:09:21

I am planning to save up for a high quality lineal machine for training, but in the meantime, I would like to get a less expensive pivotal machine for therapeutic purposes. The chiropractic office I visit uses a CrazyFit, but as it is on your Blacklist, I hesitate to purchase one. Is there a brand of therapeutic use pivotal machine that you can in good conscience recommend

Di Heap/VibePlus Posted On:2012-03-28 16:35:04

DZT V7000 machines are being sold on Victoria, Canada.  The machines have fake specs!

There’s a questions forum on the DealFind page for the the DZT V7000 deal. It’s been spammed (by... guess who) – good job!

It’s really important to warn people and to stop companies selling products with fake specs to the very people who most need the machines – especially Obese, Disabled, Stay at home Older folk and mothers who do no other exercise.

Lloyd Shaw Posted On:2012-03-27 22:16:53
Brent...  Two things..
(a) I would want to know why the knee is building up fluid first before doing anything like Vibration Training
(b).  You would need a machine with side handle bars for safety. 
I would be very wary of using the wrong machine with the wrong program.
  Where are you located ?
brent Posted On:2012-03-27 16:02:33

i have full knee replacement it was done 5 years ago and i still get swelling on the knee will vibration training help me

Di Heap/VibePlus Posted On:2012-03-26 10:31:03

I agree; John, regular physical activity and exercise along with extra attention given to nutrition (possibly supplementation) can help reduce age related physical changes.  Also as a mental boost; exercise lowers stress hormones and gives a “feel-good” effect which is interesting – we add controlled stress to the body to reduce mental stress.  (I tell some of my customers to go for a short, outdoor walk when they feel caught in a spiral of worry or mild depression).

 Vibration Training (good quality lineal or pivotal machines) using the Safety Program is such an effective and safe way for older adults to maintain muscle strength, joint mobility, bone strength, hormonal balance, and mental acuity and more.  All of this helps maintain independence (assuming no heredity or illness problems) and involvement in activity.

 I’ve been reading a booklet about physical activity from Sweden (recently translated into English) – the section about “older adults” is really interesting.  It simply states why we already know – no surprises – recommendation for older adults to continue or begin aerobic (walking, swimming etc) and weight training. Generally as we age we lose muscle mass and muscle strength caused by a decrease in the number and size of muscle fibres, even to halving muscle strength.  This then affects bone mass and strength. We also tend to increase fat deposits.  Suddenly there’s increased risk of falling, risk of fractures, osteoporosis etc.  Improvement in muscle mass and quality of 50 - 200% was achieved with weight training no more than 3 times a week (80% max).  This equates to having the same strength as a much younger person.  Maintenance with weights can be training as little as once weekly.

 I believe Vibration Training will become a major activity for older adults (even aged 40+).  With a quality and well designed machine there’s even greater benefits than using weights for many people.  The machine causes a rebalancing effect that can’t easily be achieved with free-weights or weight machines.  This helps improve imbalances caused by injuries or occupational reasons.  We see a rapid increase in strength and, as in my husband’s experience, visual shape change in muscles.  Flexibility improves markedly; some people come into the studio hunched or using a stick to help with balance and walking and leave walking upright, unaided.  After a few months they maintain those benefits as long as they keep coming.   We recommend training (or therapy for those who can’t do the full training program) 3 times a week, minimum of twice.  I don’t think it is possible to maintain benefits by training once a week except for a very short length of time.  In the not too distant future we’ll have machines in older person’s villages, community centres, hospitals, gyms, just about everywhere BUT firstly there’s a lot of education to be done. The machines are serious exercise equipment and as such they need to be respected and used correctly.


John Posted On:2012-03-26 02:49:50

Good story Di.  As we age, I believe vibration training can be of tremendous value for strength training without the joint stress of traditional strength or power training.  Additonally, runners pound and mangle their bodies step after step and day after day.  Some can tolerate this continued stress over time but others cannot.  I believe two or three hard vibration training or strength training sessions a week with physical activity of a less demanding nature on other days is a good way to go for health and wellness in the long term.  Of course, as we age our hormones fall off and one needs to pay ample attention to nutrition, how we handle or react to the inevitable stresses of life etc for a complete wellness approach.

John T. Weatherly

Di Heap/VibePlus Posted On:2012-03-25 18:50:23

Quote from a customer – “after all the years I forced myself to use free weights and saw no change in my body; who would have thought it would be this easy to gain muscle strength and look better”

Okay – the quote as it stands is what he said – but it’s a bit misleading.

Click through to my latest blog to read the rest.  This is about the results my husband, Greg, has seen from regular Vibra-Train studio sessions.

Lloyd Shaw Posted On:2012-03-19 21:43:30
The victim mentality, and the "hear no evil see no evil" deafening silence of Galileo has been profound and its effects will last for years. They had a small window of opportunity in 2004 - 2005 to act, and instead they froze. Out of arrogance or fear, makes no difference. The damage was the same.  
As much as Gabriel Ettenson will not want to admit. But the pioneers of Pivotal had no vision when it came to forming this industry.
Think about this....
They basically challenged the industry to build faster and better machines. By saying " faster and higher is better, so choose us ". But then failed to clearly outline how to use such machines.
I did the exact opposite. Challenged the industry to build better Lineal machines. Then rammed a safety program down everyone's throats.
One of these things is not like the other. 
Lloyd Shaw Posted On:2012-03-19 14:55:45
To address some of the others...
 “Pivotal platforms are for therapeutic purposes only”
Again if you look at the foundations of the industry. You had a bunch of Physios working for Galileo, actually refusing to discuss setting up "training" programs for the studio concept.  If fact they thought the idea of a studio was stupid.  I know because I engaged them and got knocked back in regards to developing a standard Pivotal program as a start point for commercial ventures. 
They kept promoting "fluff" poses that had therapy values but little training effects. They certainly did not want to even discuss weight loss programs with me.
Why did you think it took them years to even get into a studio ( yours Gabriel ) and you had to be a Physio for them to want to talk to you ?
“Lineal is better for moving lymph. You cannot use Pivotal for this!”
Zero foundation . Just made up BS. All muscle movement involves lymph .
 “Higher frequencies are better! It means more muscle contractions!”
 The industry is full of stuff like that. Anyone who preaches "more is more" " Faster , higher = better is guilty of this mindset. Seen it from Power Plate and Galileo to name a few.
 “Pivotal platforms emit dangerous electromagnetic fields (EMF’s)!”
Technically speaking anything electrical does this. So again quite easy to refute and never heard this as a reason to not do VT in all my years running a studio.
Di Heap Posted On:2012-03-19 11:21:48

It’s going to be very interesting to have Murray Seaton of Hypervibe in our studio sometime soon to test the Vibra-Train, Pulse Trainer (set to lineal) and Body Pulse.  I’ve used all three machines.  There are some differences and limitations in physical design – the Pulse Trainer is very low to the ground making The Triceps Dip very uncomfortable yet The Plank can be challenging in my opinion, and the handlebar design is different in all three machines BUT they all have a wide range of available settings and can be matched up.  I’m excited to see these tests done, the scientific accelerometer readings and the PE (perceived exertion) comparison. 

I don’t qualify as a test participant but I’m excited to be able to watch the tests being performed.

Di Heap Posted On:2012-03-19 11:00:19

I read an older article written by Gabriel Ettenson about “How to properly select a Platform”.  In it he names the machines that they (Hypervibe group) support.  I see 4 pivotal platforms listed as High Acceleration and 4 lineal machines listed as Medium Acceleration (one is listed as high).  

Beacuse it reads that the pivotal platforms are higher, to the casual reader that makes them look better – Not different but Better.

The criteria used for testing does not significantly differentiate the two main types of machines. Categorising machines with just one criterion  (G-Force/acceleration) doesn’t help people choose a machine for their needs.

In the Basics of Vibration section of the article only two factors, frequency and amplitude, and their relationship, are explained yet there is much more involved in the energy transferred to a person in position on a machine.  Even given the article is meant to be simple, it’s misleading.  I sometimes use a machine with very low amplitude (less than 1mm) but the frequency isn’t wound up high to give effect; it remains the same as all the other machines in the studio (43Hz), yet this particular machine almost makes me cry with the intensity of muscle contraction it causes.  In contrast the High Speed Pivotal machine I sometimes use at high setting shakes the hell out of my leg muscles (quads, hamstrings, calf) but doesn’t have that deep muscle contraction feeling.  Clearly what’s happening to the human body (mine in this instance) is very different and the factors of frequency and amplitude are insufficient to explain.

Also when choosing a machine (for home use or in a studio) a very important consideration needs to be use by people with any degree of disability  a person with muscular dystrophy or a very obese person needs handlebar support, the more handlebar the better for their stability and to be able to hold even a simple deep squat, keeping knees and hips in alignment – safe positioning.  Add in that many of these people cannot easily get onto the floor, there needs to be a way to workout their upper body. Some machines have straps that attach to the platform for the user to pull against. This requires stability standing in front of the machine which is something many of these people don’t have.  I’d like to see a pivotal machine with side vibrating handlebars so the upper body can be worked at the same time as the legs.  Just like the lineal machine I use with these people.  Add in that the platform must take the weight of my heaviest clients, currently 160-180Kg (and I’ve had heavier), with no degradation of performance.  My bias towards lineal is nothing if I had a pivotal machine that gave better or similar results, my clients would use it.

Lloyd Shaw Posted On:2012-03-18 19:20:53
Gabriel Ettenson has vented his frustration at Lineal salespeople using scare tactics to gets sales. Here are a few of his "issues"....
“Pivotal motion causes dangerous shearing forces on the joints!”
“High acceleration levels are dangerous!”
 “Low fq’s of pivotal platforms are dangerous for the internal organs!”
My answer....
I think Gabriel you will find almost all your "myths" have there roots in the mis-use of Pivotal platforms. Not the correct use of them.
Eg....  The standing Lock Legged position being done at the Higher Fqs. Which should to anyone with any anatomical knowledge, or a set of eyes, would raise concern.
The Pivotal industry has been its own worst enemy at times. So maybe addressing that would put some of the things you mention into context.
I made Galileo aware of this issue years ago. After seeing a Galileo being used in exactly such a way, in a Doctors office , as this video shows at .....
Please note: The machine in the video is probably hitting 10 hz max. The Galileo went 3 times faster with 3 times the acceleration.  The Doctor involved had never even been cautioned about this issue. And in fact tried to make me do the same position on the units highest speed setting as a demo. I refused.
The nurse of the Doctor ( who at first thought I was a Galileo person ) asked me if I could take the machine away, she was so concerned with the anything goes behavior. 
Just like the Lineal industry has issues caused from Power Plates BS. The Pivotal had its own issues. But refused to address them from day one from "fear of losing a sale". So who is to blame Gabriel. Those who did nothing or those who are using that incompetence to gain sales now.
And what about Pivotal companies guilty of using scare tactics themselves ?? 
I personally blame them all.   
PS. I would say people being allowed to stand lock-legged on Pivotal machine being wound all the way up in Health and Fitness Expos and TV adverts, would be the highest singular reason I have heard for people not even willing to try Vibration Training of any kind.  
Mike M. Posted On:2012-03-17 14:50:16

Heidi can go to the Wave site and try the Wave locator; there might be a PT or chiro office nearby who has one, like it was for me.

Just a thought.

Lloyd Shaw Posted On:2012-03-17 14:35:44
2 good videos to watch to show that quite the opposite of keeping secrets. I do my best to challenge the industry to move forward on designs and thinking.  
Lloyd Shaw Posted On:2012-03-17 09:53:16
Mike M....
Who knows. Maybe Murray will be able to give you some opinion on that. As they have tested a number of Lineal units 'state-side" but not sure about your model. It also needs a PE comparison for this test.
Your best bet is either HyperVibe ( Pivotal  ) or DKN or Wave ( Lineal ).  My advice. Try before you buy. $3K is still like a small car. It is an investment.  
Heidi Posted On:2012-03-17 01:59:58

Hi,  I live in the US and unfortunately in a city that does not have a high vibration studio of any type.  I am looking to purchase a machine for my home.  One that is affordable yet still effective.  I would be using it for fitness and weight loss purposes.  I have been trying to do some research on the Internet to help me decide which machine would be best - but have found that I am totally confused and frustrated.  Each machine site claiming they are the best in the industry, yet each promoting a different type of vibration.  And is it even possible to get a home unit that will help me achieve my fitness goals for under $3,000 US dollars?  Any information you can give me in selecting a home unit would be very much appreciated.  Thanks so much!

Mike M. Posted On:2012-03-17 00:37:22

Any way someone could test a Wave (Contour Plus preferably) for comparison?

Lloyd Shaw Posted On:2012-03-16 18:31:40
And just in case anyone thinks PE ( Perceived Exertion )  is not an reliable measure. This study showed it matched physiological stress exactly. And PE will continue to be used as long as science lacks the tools to measure everything.
I will only be using people who have been training for years at a serious level. Who have zero financial ties to Vibra-Train.    
Lloyd Shaw Posted On:2012-03-16 16:06:06
Mike M....
Sorry do not know the dates. It should not take too long as pretty straight forward test.  
To those who have already sent me emails on the subject expressing concern .....
 There are no secrets to steal. I have basically spent the last 8 years spelling it out to everybody in plain English in plain site putting up challenges to follow me. I do not think the industry can move forward on a "secret vibration recipe"  idea.
I know what it takes to do what I have done. And I say good luck to those who try. The industry actually needs them to try harder. My issue has been those who have a vested interest in not asking questions.
Lloyd Shaw Posted On:2012-03-16 14:36:40
Just to clarify the reasons for the tests ........
Murray Seaton ( and a majority of the industries experts, and by that I mean everyone but me )  understanding so far has been its all about Fq X Amplitude. ( acceleration is now being discussed as a factor ) .
My opinion from day one is those figures only play a part in the overall effects ( 9 factors in total from my point of view ). The entire machine, from ground up had to be a balanced equation. And I built machines around my theories.
In short I have said controlled  "Inertia" of the actual platform plays a massive role in muscle response. 
The test itself.....  
3 machines will be tested side by side. 2 of which are magnetically driven so have no real inertia , but have perfect Fq x Amplitude figures on paper. These units are variable Fq and Amplitude units so getting all 3 to match should be possible.  Mine is set to a certain degree so we will be doing our best to get the other 2 to match mine. ( it should be noted that other Lineal machines tested by Murray Seaton eg... Power Plate , DKN , etc...  have similar settings that hold under load and the results are available ) 
Note: We are aiming for approx 1 mm , 45 hz on all 3 machines. "Aiming" being the operative word as we just do not know yet.
Perceived Exertion ( how hard it feels to work out on ) levels by multiple parties that do not know each other will then be put alongside each units acceleration results.
Loaded and unloaded test should be done, in a Static Squat position to replicate the bio-mechanical nature of the machines usage.  A load of 60kg - 80 kg is suggested by me as that is the average weight of those who will be doing the PE tests.   
I put myself forward as a test subject as I weight 74kg and there is no way to influence the machines value in a static squat pose.
If the difference is profound. Then the science moves forward by more questions being asked. I personally look forward to more questions being asked.        
Mike M. Posted On:2012-03-16 09:58:30

When will these tests be reported in print?

Lloyd Shaw Posted On:2012-03-15 15:22:55
"For the record, Murray Seaton and Lloyd Shaw have reached an agreement for the betterment of the whole industry.'
To this end, we are going to move forward with a number of projects. I have invited Murray Seaton to tests our machines and do the following....
What I am looking for is Murray Seaton's opinion on the Perceived Exertion level of my different machines VS other machines with identical readings as per  Fq , Ampl , Accel  readings.
For direct comparisons we have a Pulse Trainer and Body Pulse on site that will also tested. The good thing about these 2 units is the wide range of settings that can be done. So an "apples for apples" comparison can be done.     
 I am getting 2 well respected personal trainers and 2 carded athletes who have nothing to do with our industry to also do perceived exertion tests on the same machines. Because perceived exertion can vary from person to person. Depending on their background. I believe this will be a fair tests.
This should be more than interesting.
Lloyd Shaw Posted On:2012-03-12 19:07:39
Lloyd Shaw Posted On:2012-03-11 10:52:13
DZT Fitness get Blacklisted...
This company has, despite requests for honesty. Continued to sell machine with fake specifications and gets all consumer inquiries regarding other issues deleted from Auction sites. 
Whenever a specific question is asked about anything.  They refuse to answer. 
This was my specific question to Douglas Nevin  the owner of DZT Fitness  here .....
 So lets get this clear.

The exact machine you are selling has a plate Fq range of 0 hz - 30hz .

Will full refunds will be given if it does not have a plate Fq range of 0 hz - 30hz?
Despite the question being asked multiple times by different people once I brought the subject up. Along with other questions regarding results if the machine is fake. None were answered and most were deleted.  
Lloyd Shaw Posted On:2012-03-10 14:18:43
A re-read of my original article about running a Vibration Training studio.
Just in case anyone reads some of the "newly" released articles by "experts" on how to run a studio and want to know where the knowledge really came from.
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