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Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train Posted On:2011-09-18 09:34:13
A calculator is no good, as the theoretical and actual physical readings will not be the same.
 
A chart should be very easy to make given the engineering tests figures. .
 
Mike M. Posted On:2011-09-18 04:25:56

I may ask Jasper what the "G" rating would be for each level on the Exercise program. Or is there a formula I can use to calculate it myself?

 
Mike M. Posted On:2011-09-18 04:17:27

ChrisL,

Try doing a semi-squat as in the IVTRB program, arms folded, don't hold the handles, on Exercise, high, level 7, for 2 minutes. Let me know if that burns or not. Oh, and don't use the blue pad. in fact, barefoot may be best.

 
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train Posted On:2011-09-17 23:18:23
ChrisL...
 
(1) It is highly unlikely the motors were damaged during delivery.  If you really think there is a problem then Wave should help.
 
(2)  By strict I mean maybe a few added poses for longer periods than 60sec. And by Stricter on a High Energy Lineal means perfect posture due to the leap in force being produced by the plate.
 
The Wave is a smooth unit to work with, which means it gives a decent punch in that 3mm ( or so )  but very controlled. Not like a Pivotal that seems "rough and hard"  but in physics terms much less force is being produced and directed into muscles. It is almost like a misdirection of sensations. 
 
ChrisL Posted On:2011-09-17 20:05:07

Lloyd,

Thank you for the "rattle" answer.  I have 3 questions. I have been testing the machine and worked out on it and noticed quite different sounds from the motor at different levels, especially the higher levels and frequencies, it almost sounds damaged or laboring.  The reason I ask is I am wondering if the machine is defective for when delivered the Box at the base looked messed up and protruding out.  

1)     Is there a way to have my Contour Plus tested? Working properly.

2)     When I use the thick blue mat.  It is almost as if i cannot feel the vibration or effect.

3)     I read in previous post you consider Contour Plus a medium Energy Lineal machine.  You stated that you get results if you follow a strict program.  What do you mean Strict and does this mean if I purchased a High Energy machine I can be less strict with routine?

 The reason I ask you is I never tested the Contour Plus Prior to Purchase (long story).  I used other Machines and read very Positive reviews on Wave and you like the company and recommend a Steel unit from them.  I guess I am concerned because I worked out on it and did not feel exhausted or pumped or the effect as I have had on others. In fact I feel less engaged than I have on pivotal Machines and wondering if I made a mistake.   I debated back and forth Lineral vs. Pivital and chose Lineal because of stregnth and power and thought I could also develop Balance on it via various poses.  I am new  to WBV.

 Thank you for the help.

 

 

 
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train Posted On:2011-09-17 17:15:13

If I am not mistaken Globus was the first company to list Gs in their touch screen programs alongside the Fq / Amplitude. Another company called SilverPlate also did this some years back. But the lack in education around this equipment meant no-one "got it".  

 
Mike M. Posted On:2011-09-17 15:39:12

Jasper just sent this note to me on Contour Plus

 

Stretch 1-10 coincides with a frequency of 30 to 40 Hertz
Exercise coincides with a frequency of 30 to 50 Hertz by increments of 2 Hz (3 Hz at the beginning and end to round off to 10 levels)
Massage coordinates to 45 to 50 Hertz

 

So I guess the magic 43 Hz would be level 7 on Exercise. There, that wasnt that bad, was it, Wave. You should really consider putting that bit in a manual or on the website somewhere. Jasper says that they considered putting the levels on as Gs instead of just levels, but didnt, and now Power Plate is doing that first with the My7. Hadnt heard of that model myself.

 
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train Posted On:2011-09-17 13:56:39
Interesting final chapter in the story of this studio system..... http://unlimited.co.nz/unlimited.nsf/startup/pickin-up-good-vibrations
 
What happens if you choose the wrong equipment. And you suddenly get busy. 
 
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train Posted On:2011-09-17 13:55:36
ChrisL...
 
The rattle is normal in a machine with a choice of high or low settings. It is the extra free floating weights on the motor.  You can always tell this because it only happens on start up and stop.
 
ChrisL Posted On:2011-09-17 12:47:59

To Lloyd, Patti or Mike M,

 

  I just purchased a Contour Plus and I am concerned about the sound I hear when I start and finish. My first day.  I get a rattleing just at the start  and finish...like an old car almost coughing.  I just unpacked the Countour Plus and have to sayI am dissappointed with the display.   3 exercise modes, Massage, Stretch and Exercise.  Levels 110. Thought there would be more guidence as well.  But main concern now is the rattle at the ver start and finish. Anyone experience this  It is Friday night and I can not speak withWave until Monday.  Dissappointed in NJ.

 

Thank you for you Help,

Chris

 
Patty Posted On:2011-09-16 12:15:01

Mike M

I am not surprised by your disappointment with Rochelles answers, but I am disapointed.  When I asked her questions prior to purchasing my Wave, she had to put me on hold to tlak to someone else.  She finally connected me with jasper and I spoke with him and felt much better with his answers.  I would think they would give you his email if you called the corporate office...or like myself...you may be able to talk with him directly.  He is very soft spoken, but very knowledgable.  I do think Lloyd is right....there are sales people that just sell....and those that sell but have the desire ot know everything about the product they sell. Too bad for Wave...they might sell even more machines if the sales for was more involved.  If Lloyd had not pointed me in their direction...I would not have bought from them.  Their Web site left a lot to be desired when I placed my order...and I told Rochelle that.  Hopefully she passes on comments from customers to their marketing people.

As people get more knowledgable about vibration training....  thanks to people Lloyd sharing the knowledge....companies will have to have highly informed sales people.....or they will lose sales.  Too bad for those that dont do their homework.

 
Di Heap/VibePlus Posted On:2011-09-16 07:34:21

Maybe the question to ask Rochelle is “How often do you use the Wave machine?”

Not that you need to be a technical expert to use one but she is listed as “Marketing Specialist” which surely requires more than basic sales information about the products.

Try phoning Wave and ask for the right person to answer your questions and  if that doesn’t help send an email with your list of questions to Lloyd and I’ll ask him to pass them on. His email is at bottom of page on Vibra-Train (www.vibra-train.com) website.

 
Mike M Posted On:2011-09-16 03:07:03


I'm afraid I don't have Sidhu's email address.

 
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train Posted On:2011-09-15 21:01:08
Mike M...
 
Regarding Rochelle's answers. Yes unfortunately there are those who simply "work" in the industry, and those who are "involved".
 
Maybe contacting Jasper Sidhu directly would be best. He write this article....  http://www.vibration-training-advice.com/optimum-frequency-for-training-on-lineal-part-1  
 
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train Posted On:2011-09-15 13:58:42
Mike M...
 
If you want to just work out one leg. Then place a platform of the same height ( slightly higher )  next to the vibration plate and do your squats one leg on , one leg off.  The slight elevation will overload only the leg you want while still keeping perfect form.
 
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train Posted On:2011-09-15 13:54:54
Mike M...
 
One legged squats are not recommended by me on vibration platforms of one reason. Losing form is almost guaranteed.
 
Watch the pose being held from behind and within 10 secs the standing leg will turn inwards . And the hip flexor will twist the opposite direction to counter the weight shift. My opinion is it will give short term benefits, but long term problems.

 
 
Mike M. Posted On:2011-09-15 08:37:18

Well, I have to say that Rochelle's answers to my questions were less than satisfactory. In response to my question about what the settings 1-10 in the various (stretch, exercise, massage) programs on the Contour Plus, she directed me to a pdf file on the website that appears to deal with the Pro Elite model. Not helpful. As for the dents in the blue pad, she says they should disappear in a few days. It's been almost a week and it doesn't look to me like they're going away. Maybe I'll give it a few more days, then I'll be a bit upset with her.

I am doing the entire IVTRB program except the stretch and the cellulite poses. And today I thought I'd try to address the problem with my bad knee with it (or start to). It has become obvious to me that the bad one has a somewhat smaller VMO than the good one has. The difference is visible. Not sure how it got that way. Maybe I was born that way and it took this long to show up as a problem. Anyway, I am doing one legged squats on my bad knee on the platform, for 60 seconds. They are extremely hard to do. The last 8 or 10 seconds are hard to hold form. I do not have the same difficulty doing those superman squats for 60 seconds using both legs. I think maybe my good leg does most of the work, robbing the bad one of most of the benefit. The one legged squat prevents this.

 
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train Posted On:2011-09-12 20:12:32
Patty...
 
Straps.....  You do not need the handle bars or straps for decent results. Mine were designed so the machine can extend to a larger demographic ( disabled due to injury or obesity or athletes ). Most companies will take years to develop or release anything like it since it is a major step in engineering terms. You must understand most companies struggle with the basics eg... building machines without limitations..
 
Note A lot of the poses I banned years ago were because I knew what kind of machinery was going to released in the future.     
 
Safety Mat.....  Just make your own mat. Most rubber / pool places will sell foam thick enough to do this and the spray glue needed.
 
Seated abs....  I do not personally recommend it, because of safety reasons even though it is effective. The fact is most people are simply not fastidious enough to remember to put the mat on the machine every time. And with the more powerful steel machines, that could cause a real injury to the tailbone. The kind of thing that could put an end to all your training. So only do it if you are not the kind of person who forgets stuff.
 
People who have only ever had access to weak plastic Power Plates would fail to comprehend this. 
 
Am I too safe, probably too safe for some in the industry. Even Physios. I train everybody as though they are human and will forget important stuff, and already carrying an injury. Which does sound limiting. But that's a reputation I can live with.       
 
Di Heap/VibePlus Posted On:2011-09-12 19:04:03

We do not do the seated abdominal position on Vibra-Train machines. I don’t consider that a safe position on lineal machines – if you do it please make sure you have 2-3 layers of rubber mat under you. Leaning backward, makes the force hit the tail bone on an unsafe angle, in my opinion, despite it being on the program you’ve received and even given that your machines are not as high force as the ones I use.  It’s one of those “better safe than sorry” situations. 

Your abdominals are worked in just about every pose and you cannot target abdominal fat anyway, the muscles there being too small to do that. Your squats, hard work using the big muscles of the body, are the answer to fat reduction and the pelvic stability pose strengthens that area.

 
Di Heap/VibePlus Posted On:2011-09-12 18:54:48

Mike M and Patty

You are going a process of evaluating your machines and the extras (straps, mats etc) and the programs you’ve been given, and comparing them (supposedly designed for your specific machines) with the IVTRB  Safety Program which is very exacting but simple and short duration overall.  I went through that process long ago; I went to many studios and tried machines in sales showrooms with differing programs.  I soon decided the IVTRB program gave me the best results by far. 

Now as an instructor I value the IVTRB program very much more as its effective for everyone, carded athletes through to the 80+ aged people I get in the studio.  You must be very careful to follow the step by step instructions and get someone to watch over you when possible, even get them to read the instructions to you. If you start in the perfect position and maintain that, correcting as necessary (correct down about 4x in each 60 second squat – everyone pulls away, upward) you will find the program both hard and very effective; it’s an invigorating feeling to finish it with the 2 minute super squat when you are able.

 
Mike M Posted On:2011-09-12 14:29:02

Patty

Yes I tried the Pro Elite at the chiro's office that one time. He set it to continuously vary the frequency, I think it was from 35-45, up and down and back up again, over and over. I remember thinking I wish I could just set it in the 40's and maybe adjust it up and down just a bit to see because the 30's was way too easy.

The "air mattress" is what Lloyd is calling the Wave AWT which is on all three metal models they have, mine too, but not the Chinese plastic model Contour. I think the main difference in the three models is platform size and weight and weight capacity (and it appears the Contour Plus menus are dumbed down about as much as possible) and that the Contour Plus lacks that lower level menu panel that you can use while not standing up.

I was kind of thinking the straps are pretty useless, I may just pack them up and toss in the closet with the poster. I tried the biceps pose which is standing on the platform doing a curl, but it didn't feel like it was doing too much. Thought it was me.

 
Patty Posted On:2011-09-12 07:58:33

Lloyd,

I had tried the straps and did not feel that much vibration was coming through them…so your video really drove it home. But of course now I feel cheated since I don’t have vibrating handle bars! Hopefully the planks and push ups will tone and build the arms just as well. I did notice that you use the vibrating handle bars in your personal workout.

Regarding the mats you use, Wave doesn’t offer one with the indention that yours has…do you know if there are any available for purchase anywhere? If not, we will try to make one ourselves. I guess we will try buying two mats, offset the edge of one versus the other, then secure them together. It shouldn’t matter that the mat beyond the ledge will be double since the elbows only go on to the ledge which will be a single mat.

Do you have any other poses that you suggest for working primarily the abdominals? The Wave booklet shows sitting on the platform with legs off the side of the platform, crossing your hands over your chest, then leaning back at about a 120 degree angle. Another similar pose while seated, is extending your arms straight overhead, then leaning back at the same 120 degree angle. Any thoughts on these poses? Do you think they are safe and of any benefit. I have performed them and they do seem to work the abdominal area - my daughter especially thought they were tough to hold. But, I am wondering if they are safe for your back.

 
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train Posted On:2011-09-11 17:55:24
Patty...
 
Straps.....Attachable straps in my opinion are  basically useless and actually go against the very idea of Vibration Training. Watch this.....  http://www.youtube.com/user/VibraTrain#p/u/9/VpBDfPno7fc  ( explanation at the 3 min mark )
 
Note  My Bullet units have no handle bars or straps and people get fantastic results just following my program.
 
Massage .  50hz High is best if not too aggressive on area. 
 
Auto adjust.....  All that is happening is your body weight slows and bogs the machine down. So it speeds it back up and pumps up the air mattress to counter this. So yes I would say the reading is very accurate.
 
 
If the Wave staff actually use their machine. Have no idea sorry. Big problem we have in the industry at present are salespeople not walking the walking. 
 
It is my understanding only some of their units have a random Fq variation option.    
 
 
 
Patty Posted On:2011-09-11 16:10:18

Lloyd

Are you familiar with the attachable straps for the Wave? What is your opinion of using these? The vibration is much less when using the straps since for most of the exercises, you are not standing on the machine - instead pulling on the straps. Is there any support for the usefulness of these or am I wasting my time doing these routines?

Also, is there an optimal HZ and amplitude for massage?

Now a technical question. The Wave Air supposedly adjusts to a person’s weight to insure that they everyone gets the same workout - regardless of their weight. So my question is this - If a 300 lb person gets on the Wave and it adjusts to their weight - then a 125 lb person gets on without having the machine do a re-adjustment - will the machine be operating at a higher hz and amplitude than the settings displayed for the 125 lb person? Does this question make any sense?

Also, now that I have had my machine for a bit, it seems weird to me that Rochelle would not have known that you can adjust the settings on the machine. She said she used the Wave regularly at work but that she had never tried to adjust the settings. That means that she was only working out at 30 hz and low…since that is the default when you go into the exercise setting. I was under the impression that the machine went through some sort of automatic variation of hz and amplitude while doing the exercises…but that is not the case with my machine. It is just static - at whatever I set it at. Perhaps she was using the model up from mine and it works differently?

Mike M - perhaps you know the answer to this since you tried the Wave Pro at the dr. office?

 
Patty Posted On:2011-09-11 16:08:38

Mike M

I did the safety program plus tonight and similar to you, the leg exercises are much easier than upper body. I have a bit of trouble with my left hand on the platform because of an injury. I agree with Lloyd, the super squat is a difficult trying to do the full 2 minutes - at least for me it is.

I realized that you can get to 4mm and 50 hz by using the massage setting. You can choose either the high or low setting and it goes up to 50 hz. Now that assumes that high and low are always 2mm and 4mm - regardless as to whether you are in mobiliztion, massage, or exercise…and I don’t think we can find that in the specs anywhere. I think your machine has the same specs - Wave just calls them by different names…so you just need to figure out which option you need to be in to get the full 50 hz. However, on my machine, when I am in massage mode - the hz setting can not be set as low as 38 - so I can’t use it in that setting for exercise as I am doing my routine at 38 and high. After reading the latest of Lloyd’s articles …I will work toward moving up on the hz to get to the ideal 43hz.

After pulling the muscle in my back a couple weeks ago, I felt like I was starting over again, but tonight I seemed to be on solid ground again. I am sticking with Lloyd’s advice of 48 hour rest between working the same muscles. That is pretty much standard advise even when using free weights, machines, etc. If you decide to use the straps for arm work - you could feasibly workout every day - do the Safety Program on one…then the strap exercise work on the following day. If you tried to do it all in one session you would be spending 50 minutes or more on your machine. After a period of time, I think 30 minutes - my machine begins a deflate process, so I have to start it up again to be sure it is set for my weight.

Oh…re the posters…I got several and they are only one sided. It doesn’t make sense that you would get different posters unless yours show the settings. Mine only show poses. I use the booklet since the posters are huge and I haven’t had time to mount them on poster board yet. If you want me to send a copy of the pages in my booklet I would be happy to do that….I don’t think they are copyrighted….just send your mailing address to my e-mail: pwiggers8506@yahoo.com

Don’t be jealous…based on the specs…I think both machines are very similar except for the weight adjustment that mine does. Hopefully that is not just a lot of hype since I paid the extra $$$ for mine! You saved some bucks.

 
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train Posted On:2011-09-11 15:15:05
Mike M...
 
Do not increase the sessions. Just do more each session. 
 
Also do not underestimate what is going on, on that day off.     
 
Mike M. Posted On:2011-09-11 13:55:06

I guess that makes sense. By the way, I did the whole safety program first day. I am mostly taking the second day off (avoid overtraining you know). I notice my machine does like to slide a bit when I do the pushup pose. Guess that's my fault. I could probably wrap a brick in a towel and brace it to stop that since it's sliding toward a wall.

The whole safety program just made me a little rubbery legged, and of course it kicks my upper body pretty well since I wasn't doing much upper body on the Crazy Fit (too rough). I think my results will be very slow on legs but upper body might be very beneficial. i have also started walking around 4-5 miles per day, to see if I can drop some weight.

Is it advisable/allowable to increase the frequency of sessions, or is that something to play with to see what works best? Is it a highly individual thing?

 
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train Posted On:2011-09-10 13:45:32
Mike M..
 
To answer your 35hz -- 45hz / 4mm limitation question.
 
Short physics lesson on those particular types of platforms, motor set up and counter weights. Please tell me if it makes sense.
 
They halve the force the motors produce by splitting the counter weights inside. Then produce extra force by reversing the motors and picking up all the weights. And then of course they have to swing them fast enough to create inertia. This moves the platform 4mm. But not at all speeds.
 
The force / amplitude / fq  relationship actually looks like a bell curve if you saw it on a graph.    
 
Thought experiment ...
 
If you only swung the weights at 10 hz. Not enough force would be produced to move the platform. So you would think the more force you produced the higher the platform would move, and this is correct but only to a point.
 
 If you speed up to 100hz. You would be going so fast the platform would not have time to move 4mm before it was pulled back down by its own opposite force. Because remember the weights are traveling in a circle.  Sure you would get a high energy vibration but it would only be approx 1mm amplitude.
 
So you have a natural range of not moving at all at low speeds, moving 4 mm at medium speeds, to again not moving much at too high a speed.
 
The 35hz -- 45 hz  is the top of the bell curve for that particular design.
 
Note Other designs and drive systems may overcome this restriction. But then you would be restricted somewhere else eg.. amount of force produced.
 
Mike M. Posted On:2011-09-10 03:15:11


Patty

Well I just emailed Rochelle. Trying to get a new pad and find out the (actual) settings. I'm a little jealous now, if my machine doesn't do walkabout (like yours) then it must be weaker, gotta hate that. One tip, I noticed if you hit the time down button when it's on zero it goes right to 15 minutes so that's a shortcut.

If in fact one cannot get high (4mm) except at a limited frequency range (say 35-45) then that seems to me to be a needless design "feature" that shows a tendency to over-engineer things. In other words, I don't like it. If I want to see what 50 Hz and 4mm feels like, I should be able to do that. Why not? Does someone think I would hurt myself?

I didn't get a pose booklet, instead I got a wall poster which, oddly enough, has different poses on both sides. So one can only look at one side of it at a time, they didn't send two copies. I think I'll roll it up and stuff it in a closet and just use the safety program.

 
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train Posted On:2011-09-09 17:54:52
Mike M....
 
The first 2 min squat will not kill you if you are already partially conditioned. The last min super squat in the program will. And as you get stronger, it will get harder. 
 
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