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Di Heap/VibePlus Posted On:2011-12-14 20:18:41

Lloyd

A few comments:

 Vibration Training (on quality machines) is absolutely effective in the fight against obesity.  We need to be more proactive in getting that message out there.  I think that means company owners, studio managers and all of us working together to promote free or reduced price sessions for those who can’t afford it and publishing the results so that other people are encouraged to use the machines. It also means the customers who are morbidly obese (and their family or friends) actually keep training and don’t stuff us all around by coming for 5 or 6 sessions and then giving up because “they are too busy” or it’s too hard” or some other useless excuse. We can’t help those who won’t help themselves.

Fake specs and machines; yes we need to keep the fight against these.  Also I’m tired of hearing of gyms that have vibration machines that are okay (medium energy) but the personal trainers haven’t a clue how to use them and are too proud to be taught. This works against us all as the gym members become anti.

Moving on machines is really dumb in my opinion.  I know the vibration of low or medium machines (both pivotal and lineal) might accentuate regular exercise but, seriously, why bother having an expensive machine when a bit more of the regular exercise probably does the same thing.  It makes us appear like a fad, with unprovable results.  It even makes the research invalid in some edicated peoples eyes

 
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train Posted On:2011-12-14 17:15:36
A few ideas to discuss or digest.....
 
(1)  I personally do not think VT will become a mature industry unless we can effectively tackle obesity. When we can help "worse case scenarios" the world will wake up to this technology.  We have too many naysayers it will only take something very impressive and undeniable to do this.  
 
 
(2) Home sales will not flourish unless the commercial sector is doing well. The reasoning behind this is simple. Home gym equipments has been solely reliant on big gyms to do well first. Eg... the treadmill . 
   
 
(3)  Fake specs and machines. Even found in gyms were always going to stop it from being taken seriously.
 
 
(4) I could not do my obesity work on Pivotal machines. Too many limitations around the persons extra size and mass. And I also believe the upper body work was as important as the legs.(  Hence the vibration handle bars. ) 
 
This was NOT an attack on Pivotal.
 
 
(5) Moving on the machines....  It has more problems than just my theories on VT.  The fact is every time positive effects are noticed even in research, I have always heard it being put down simply "to the person moving", not the vibration by people within the fitness industry.  That argument disappears under the static principle. It leaves our naysayers nowhere to run.   
 
 
(6) Any anti Lineal or Pivotal marketing is a direct attack on all of us who are trying to help people help themselves.  I spent considerable time, effort and my own money developing machines people can feel safe and comfortable on ( unlike the machines of the past and other companies ) . Because I knew our target audience would use any excuse not to do VT.
 
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train Posted On:2011-12-11 14:05:14

Note: I do not think we should ever use extreme positive reactions to the machines as marketing. It is as bad as someone who hates Vibration Training using an extremely bad reaction as a warning no-one should use it. 

 
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train Posted On:2011-12-11 12:47:47
Yes Di, We have had some startling results on the machines. Even some of my own results over time are hard to believe if thought of in a traditional sense. 
.
 
Note;  I will be writing an article on my birthday this year which will mark 6 years of nothing but VT . Photos and all. Some of my views on VT for guys have had to change because of my physical results.
 
Di Heap/VibePlus Posted On:2011-12-11 11:24:40

 

Rapid results that I have seen and had clients tell me about - after using a Vibra-Train in our studios.

 

  1. After 10-12 sessions (a month) a 22 year old guy outgrew his “skins” (compression clothing) as his quads had grown so much.
  2. Same guy asked me - does this training make me grow taller, because I have!

Note: He was young but he had by normally accepted age range already reached mature height. His ethnic group could account somewhat for his fast response to muscle training but - 3 to 4 weeks and he saw these changes! His other training was running (lots of it) which would have been thought to prevent or at least balance any resistance training.

 

  1. A 16 year old guy (barely 16, I know this because I gave him a special intro price for first month due to his age and being a student, to encourage him) - On thursday when he came for his SECOND session, told me he was amazed as he was feeling alert and awake and stronger after just ONE session two days earlier.

I didn’t ask him any questions. He just said it - sounds like he got a dose of HGH or some other rapid response input in just ONE session. As a trainer I take these guys through the standard IVTRB program and I am very hard on them; I do not let them fail or stop any positions early, they do the full 60 seconds (2 minute squat at end if they can do it). 

 

Ongoing results: too early for the second guy. The first moved city after 3 months and hasn’t had access to machines. He visits when he can. 

 

Also my husband is a endurance athlete - runner. He looks like an older runner too - tall, skinny and drawn. His accident 6 months ago when training for a professional event has left him unable to run, at all!  He’s been doing Vibra-Train much more often and he’s commenting that it’s so good. He has grown chest and arm muscle for the first time ever and he’s feeling better overall. I’ve been ignoring his testimonial to Vibra-Train but he keeps on telling me. He’s walking a lot now and starting to run again, now to watch him lose what he’s gained.

 
Willie Nugent Posted On:2011-12-11 11:21:34

Lloyd,

         So would it be safe to assume the more powerfull the machine is, under load of course then the more HGH would be released.

Also do we know if it was his own Nemes or a Galileo machine which produced these results for Dr.Bosco.

 
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train Posted On:2011-12-11 10:46:12
About the last post....
 
I am not being facetious. This person states voluntarily they are only a novice.  But at east she has the brains to ask someone apart from the marketing company selling the machine  .
 
 
They should give this Woman a PHD just for being smarter than all of the experts put together.
 
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train Posted On:2011-12-11 09:59:08
From the other forum...
 
Will make a brilliant researcher one day...
 
" Doing research as a novice but believe that a pivotal device with a frequency up to 30mHz and amplitude around 10mm would meet my needs.
The Vibraslim Europlate sold in the US seems to meet these specs. The price is $1699.
Any thoughts on this machine? Is it legit?"
 
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train Posted On:2011-12-11 09:44:40
27hz , 4mm  ( at least the one done on the actual Bosco unit ) But the problem with that amplitude spec was it was unloaded. 
 
No research on HGH done on Vibra-Train . I would have to find a motivated, honest and on-to-it researcher first.
 
I have given an open invite to Auckland Uni and a couple of researchers who were clowning around with Power Plates at one stage. But my demand they do all training at my studio and follow my protocols hasn't gone down well. 
 
They want to get people jumping around on my machines and other random stuff which I will not allow. Their lack of respect for everything Vibra-Train does and stands for is profound.      
 
Willie Nugent Posted On:2011-12-10 23:28:36

Lloyd,John,

Does anybody know the Frequency and amplitudeboth actual not suspected of the test.

Does anybody know how much HGH is released from the Safety program workout on a Vibra Train machine.

 
John Posted On:2011-12-10 17:38:39

Mike,

The 10 sets of a min on and a min off were done in two subsets of 5 with I believe a 6 min rest.  So, 5 sets of a min on and off, rest 6 min, repeat.  It was a squat.  Nobody has replicated the large acute GH response.  And, to clarify, I believe in a post below I said it was on Galileo.  I need to go back and read Marco Cardinales dissertation abstract again but I think it was on NEMES.  One thing is for certain, it was not on Power Plate and Power Plate was promoting the hormonal stuff - for example see the old coreperformance.com links Lloyd provided a few posts below.  The Power Plate schills from Athletes Performance were quick to mention the hormonal stuff and refer people to the Power Plate site.  Additionally, Mark Verstegen, President and Founder of Athletes Performance, was mentioning years ago in Power Plate marketing material about anabolic hormone responses.  Problem is the large hormonal responses were not seen in studies on Power Plate.  Please note that did not stop Power Plate and people like Mark from hyping the hormone stuff though.

John T. Weatherly

 
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train Posted On:2011-12-10 14:59:50
Mike M...
 
I would say it is highly possible to get those kind of spiked results. But I do not even think Dr Bosco fully understood what was going on, and contributed the results simply to Fq and amplitude ( mainly focusing on Fq for him ) Other companies just followed this idea  which is why they have not managed to get even similar results.
 
Note: I do not think the results were faked. HGH is actually very subtle in nature and does not give automatically profound performance results. Even the 700% increase people get from taking recumbent HGH ( expensive injections )  do not morph them overnight. It takes 12 + months to see even minor changes. It is a combination of hormones needed to make noticable changes.
 
Anything else you hear about HGH is always marketing hype.
 
Mike M. Posted On:2011-12-10 13:11:46


Hey, about that disputed study, where people supposedly did 10 1-minute exercises on a platform in one session (with the huge HGH boosts, supposedly) - were they all squats? Or something else? A mix? Anyone else ever tried to replicate that result? Anyone here ever tried it?

Seems to me, 10 1-minute squats would kind of hurt a bit...

 
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train Posted On:2011-12-09 21:22:53
What I did do first, which can be checked on this site ( search under vibration training )  http://www.iponz.govt.nz/cms/banner_template/IPTM
 
 
Was Trademark the term Vibration Training , then abandon it "due to prior use " voluntarily ( means it is too well known to be Trademarked ) . This effectively blocked it from ever being Trademarked. Even though at the time it was an unknown term to the public. 
 
I had it under good authority Power Plate was looking to lock up the term ( because it started to take off ) and try to charge companies to use it in the future.
 
 
They were more than pissed at this move and swore to trademark new terms. Which they have claimed to on multiple occasions. Each term having TM beside it, but if you check them out. It is all hot air.
 
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train Posted On:2011-12-09 21:03:26
hman ...... 
 
No the term had been used before in research. But a whole lot of terms were being used with no regard for clarification as you can read on the old forum.
 
Eg... WBV = Whole Body Vibration . Even if the whole body was not being effected. Be it training, Physio or massage.  Apparently just putting a foot on a machine was WBV
 
I simply wanted a term to be specific to "training" ( hard workout ) .
 
 
 
A classic example was Power Plate who was going to be a big influence on public perception, lumping everything in as "Vibration Therapy"  I thought it sounded as though you needed to be sick to use it. They also tried to trademark Body Vibrations ??
 
I wanted the first Power Plate studio ( which was my idea to set up much to their confusion ) to be called Vibra-Train but have Power Plate machines. It seemed logical to promote the term "Vibration Training" and use "Vibra-Train" as a extension of that. 
 
The rest is history.
 
 
 
 
I wanted these terms to mean something specific...
 
(1) Vibration Training  ( static poses on machines especially engineered to train on aka.. pure vibration training on machines designed to take heavy loads and lose no function )
 
(2)  Lineal ....  A plate that tries to only move in a lineal plane.
 
(3) Pivotal .....  A plate that Pivots on an axis .
 
(4) Vibration Therapy  ( the type of work you should see a Physio for .. aka injuries etc... where functional movement could be overseen in a strict environment. I did not think training , weight loss studios should be doing Physio work  )
 
 
I personally feel the only reason companies had to come up with lots of different names and "protocols" was to deliberately confuse the public ( and sometimes researchers ) they achieved both very successfully.  I believe in the future this opinion will be backed up by all serious vibration training industry players.
 
 
As always time will tell if I am right.
 
hman Posted On:2011-12-09 20:12:23

Are you saying you invented the term vibration training

 
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train Posted On:2011-12-09 18:54:32
A good little read of the old forum on the term "Vibration Training'  .....  http://web.archive.org/web/20080626142949/http://www.vibrationtraining.net/glossary-of-terms/
 
( Which was very unpopular with the industry when we started using it ) . You can see one of our academic mates giving us his opinion of it and the terms he was used to .
 
Also good conversation about fake specs effecting research etc..
 
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train Posted On:2011-12-09 14:52:59
" Everybody that cares about honesty and ethics"
 
They are few and far between mate. The amount of effort needed just to get people to "do the right thing" is massive. A never ending fight. But I will always do whatever it takes.
 
As in this case, the ONLY way to get positive changes is to go on a full out attack. You know the history of this topic and we have been engaging the academic community directly for many years only to be stonewalled.
 
 
 " if you haven't got any enemies, you are not trying hard enough "  
 
John Posted On:2011-12-09 06:07:29

There is no way I could forget the links you provided Lloyd.  And the history is all there for people to read.  That is the nice thing about the net.  Good job archiving the info.  They cannot deny it happened or destroy the evidence.  Folks, keep in mind the links Lloyd provided below show how the most successful athletic performance business, at least in the U.S., operates.  Its all about money, marketing, and sales - not the truth about vibration etc.

Everybody that cares about honesty and ethics should give Lloyd a pat on the back. 

John
 

 
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train Posted On:2011-12-07 22:09:42
The whole Sports Science field needs a shake up.
 
 My industry is going to be the first one which will be rocked. I am looking to get hundreds of research papers null and voided due to incompetence and dishonesty. 520 peer reviewed papers done so badly they are statistically invalid and impossible to reproduce.
 
A set of standards and protocols will be introduced using proper scientific methods.
 
Who would support such a movement ?
 
A whole new generation of researchers who do not want to be associated with the past screw ups and see massive potential for years of future grants. Grants they will not have to "sell out" for. 
 
 
I suggest a good read of these forums which was a direct in your face attack on academic sell outs ........
 
( remember these John ? )
 
 
 
 
We have been publically fighting this issue for years. And those who supported or did their best to hide the fake spec problem will be exposed. I hope all those scientifically minded people involved in our industry will support us in any way they can. 
 
John Posted On:2011-12-07 09:09:41

Interesting comment about the castle built on sand Lloyd.  I heard from a King of a  castle yesterday - Dr. William Kraemer -  who is Editor in Chief of the Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research.  The communication was personal but I will share that Dr. Kraemer has a dismal view of the field of strength and conditioning in the U.S.  He even mentioned people may want to consider looking at moving to a country other than the U.S to find meaningful employment in the field.

John T. Weatherly

 
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train Posted On:2011-12-06 14:10:58
Children are quite adapt to move out of physically uncomfortable situations. If your son was pushing to hard on a sensitive body part he would move. 
 
Note; To clarify that point it is not about the vibration itself. It is how much force / body weight is is applied to the vibration. Eg...  if you put a feather on the machine. It obviously receives little force and does not even move ( you can do this experiment yourself ). This shows body mass plays a part in how the vibrations are transferred.    
 
What could happen if he pushed too hard ? Well it would be like getting kicked down there. Similar damage / reaction would be expected. Lots of crying and sore man parts.
 
I do not think it would be possible for your Son to put enough force behind him to cause this reaction by just leaning against it.  Someone would have to push him from behind quite hard.
 
 
What would happen long term if repeated....  Well we do not let Men do the cellulite massage for safety's sake ( where you whole body weight is behind the vibration )  It is called a precautionary contra-indication. We just don't think it is a logically good idea.  No research or reports to refer to, just good common sense.   
 
Di Heap/VibePlus Posted On:2011-12-05 23:23:48

 

Jodie

 

There are times we just play it safe - when we simply can’t know what possible effect it might have. If your boy was uncomfortable he would have moved away from the machine so it appears to not be doing him any immediate harm and I doubt it can hurt him longterm either but why take any risk when Lloyd said he doesnt advise it - could he sit near you and look at a picture book or could you visit the studio with a friend or relative that can look after him while he’s in a clingy stage. Most studios have a toybox with a few playthings also. 

 

For others reading this topic: Our studio’s are generally safe for children but parents must watch over them. They must remain where the parent can see them at all times and are never allowed to visit any kitchen or bathroom areas without an adult accompanying them. It is not the instructor’s responsibility and the instructor might even stop the session if the child is disturbing other customers. This is rare but I’ve had to talk to a few mothers about this.

 
jodie Posted On:2011-12-05 22:34:52

Thank you  what sort of effects  does this have on boys is it dangerous just leaning against the machine

 
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train Posted On:2011-12-05 15:05:47
John..
 
The question has to be put to these academics.....
 
If you have built your castle on a foundation of sand, does it do any good to try and fix the castle ? 
 
 
My answer is no. You fire the architects and build a whole new castle at a new location. 
 
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train Posted On:2011-12-05 14:38:41
I would not advise the vibrations to be isolated on such a sensitive area. 
 
Note:  Children can generally climb around the machines while they are going with no detrimental effects as they produce no more energy than playing on a jungle-gym. But just like a jungle-gym where that energy goes is important.
 
Jodie Posted On:2011-12-05 08:13:49

Hello Lloyd   I have recently started VibraTrain and take my 2 year old son with me

who just seems to love the touch of the machine, he is very clingy and wants to stand

by the machine leaning his front against it, is this ok for him as his bits are obviously

touching the machine can this be detremental to his future fertility or is there no harm in it

 
John Posted On:2011-12-05 02:49:39

Good point Lloyd.  All I know about the large acute GH responses on the study with Galileo that used 10 sets of a minute on and off is what Dr. Marco Cardinale reported as part of his doctoral work - and nobody else has replicated it since.  This is something I find quite peculiar.  Marco finished his doctoral work almost 10 years ago. 

John T. Weatherly

 
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train Posted On:2011-12-04 16:24:09
Scott B ...
 
I do not want anything from them.
 
By trying to claim my predictions, discoveries and recommended protocols as their own and slander my work as not original. The academic community have gone too far. I will work hard to expose them as idiots and get them drummed out of our industry if possible. 
 
 
They have severely underestimated the power of the internet to spread the truth and my motivation to get it known. 
 
Note:  My work is also going to make them VERY unpopular with the big name labels. Because without this provocation I had no reason to release all the info and history I have on their models. But now I will be forced to, to prove my point.
 
Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train Posted On:2011-12-04 16:02:30
John... As an ex-academic you will appreciate this catch22
 
Think about this. You mentioned an increase in HGH  levels on a study done by Dr Bosco. Because it has not been able to be replicated anywhere else since, you automatically discounted it as maybe fraudulent. 
 
But if the weight of the athlete effected the performance of the machine. But that was never tested. The research could not be replicated accurately elsewhere to validate the original research. 
 
See how damaging the incompetence was.  It is a double edged sword. It makes it impossible for direct comparisons to be done, causing ambiguous, massively varied or negative results. Which our detractors are more than happy to point out and use as ammo against the whole industry. 
 
 
The further you look at this issue. The clearer it becomes it needs to be exposed. So the whole industry and research can move forward into a more serious phase. 
 
 
 
I am confident once this has happened some very positive and consistent results will come out of future research. At least without the clowns in charge we have a chance of proving to the world ( using real scientific standards ) Vibration Training is not a con.
 
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